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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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Arla Sarain
#461 - 2015-01-03 11:38:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:


How do you rank up on killboards ?

By appearing on KILLMAILS !

How are you supposed to appear on killmail while you are LOGI ?

I hope that you are not serious while saying this kind of things... Shocked


The Scythe got 5,247 kills last month, the Exequror 3,750. Logi ships do get killmails, the agouror and osprey don't because they don't see much use.

You talk about seeing the whole picture, but you keep clinging on to kill count and items bought.

A quick glance on the Cynabal killboard and it's just frigates, industrials and bunch of stuff ganked in highsec-bear-ville. Which correlates with the experience provided in the last couple of pages - cynabals are just GC ships, primarily cos they can warp out faster than any other cruiser due to the bonus. Nothing here says "A/Cs are fine". Just people burning through their stacks of Cynabals from the days they were OK.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#462 - 2015-01-03 13:17:51 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:

You talk about seeing the whole picture, but you keep clinging on to kill count and items bought.


Because that shows autocannon ships are doing well. So far people who want the TE nerf undone for autos have shown zero evidence to make the case it is needed.
Arla Sarain wrote:

A quick glance on the Cynabal killboard and it's just frigates, industrials and bunch of stuff ganked in highsec-bear-ville. Which correlates with the experience provided in the last couple of pages - cynabals are just GC ships, primarily cos they can warp out faster than any other cruiser due to the bonus. Nothing here says "A/Cs are fine". Just people burning through their stacks of Cynabals from the days they were OK.


Looking at todays count I see just as many cruiser kills as frigates and a smattering of battleship and battlecruisers. I also see that sales of cynabals on the market are mirrored by the losses so no, this is not a case of people using vast stockpiles of ships from several years ago.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#463 - 2015-01-03 13:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Unlikely. Did you forget about drones? Ishtars/vexors online? Infact, acs would be a decent counter to those ships. Not a dunking, but a gf.

Also, looking at the old thread people were bitching about the talos more than minmatar stuff. A lot has been rebalanced since then.


Having lived though it it was the cynabals that dominated with the cane, vagabond, SFI and stabber close behind. You plan will bring that horrible age back.


Pretty useless to talk with someone which is just fearing an another cynabal/vaga domination while the game has change and doesn't wants to see the reality.

You're speaking about a ship while you're not even flying it and don't want to accept the actual facts... Try to be relevant pls

You're even lying that's were things are funny.

Buff the AC to get the pre-TE nerf fall off, only way to compete in the actual game.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#464 - 2015-01-03 13:49:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:

You talk about seeing the whole picture, but you keep clinging on to kill count and items bought.


Because that shows autocannon ships are doing well. So far people who want the TE nerf undone for autos have shown zero evidence to make the case it is needed.
Arla Sarain wrote:

A quick glance on the Cynabal killboard and it's just frigates, industrials and bunch of stuff ganked in highsec-bear-ville. Which correlates with the experience provided in the last couple of pages - cynabals are just GC ships, primarily cos they can warp out faster than any other cruiser due to the bonus. Nothing here says "A/Cs are fine". Just people burning through their stacks of Cynabals from the days they were OK.


Looking at todays count I see just as many cruiser kills as frigates and a smattering of battleship and battlecruisers. I also see that sales of cynabals on the market are mirrored by the losses so no, this is not a case of people using vast stockpiles of ships from several years ago.


The first page shows the only solo kill by the cynabal is a jag. Everything else is in a gang. In some cases the frigates on the KM did more dps than the cynabal. Took 10-15 people including a cynabal to bring down a ratting mach.Then another killed an oracle with a neut legion (hard fight when oracle cant even shoot back). The data is telling us what we've been telling you, but you dont want to look at that. That would go against your argument and make you wrong. So as usual, cherry picking the data to try and manipulate the conversation. And skewing it by saying acs are good but then all your data is showing that they are in gangs. Not solo like it was 2 years ago. And that was just the first page on the KB.

Tell me. If instead of cynabal and acs, every gang brought a drake with HML to whore on KM. Using your logic, that means HML are balanced right?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#465 - 2015-01-03 16:46:37 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The first page shows the only solo kill by the cynabal is a jag. Everything else is in a gang.


And?

The bulk of kills from every single ship are made when flying in gangs.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

In some cases the frigates on the KM did more dps than the cynabal. Took 10-15 people including a cynabal to bring down a ratting mach.Then another killed an oracle with a neut legion (hard fight when oracle cant even shoot back). The data is telling us what we've been telling you, but you dont want to look at that. That would go against your argument and make you wrong. So as usual, cherry picking the data to try and manipulate the conversation. And skewing it by saying acs are good but then all your data is showing that they are in gangs. Not solo like it was 2 years ago. And that was just the first page on the KB.



All this shows is that you want overpowered a/c boats back because they don't dominate like they used to.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Tell me. If instead of cynabal and acs, every gang brought a drake with HML to ***** on KM. Using your logic, that means HML are balanced right?


Why is it that you think people would pick a rubbish ship to just get on a mail? People don't fly ships if they are not capable.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#466 - 2015-01-03 17:18:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

All this shows is that you want overpowered a/c boats back because they don't dominate like they used to.


We want ships that are able to compete in the current meta, is that hard to understand ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#467 - 2015-01-03 18:00:26 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

All this shows is that you want overpowered a/c boats back because they don't dominate like they used to.


We want ships that are able to compete in the current meta, is that hard to understand ?


They already do and a good few are on the top of the pile.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#468 - 2015-01-03 19:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Baltec, Medium autos damage application is pretty ****, Especially in non falloff bonused hulls like the rupture.

For example, Using just ship bonuses and level 5 skills, a Thorax with Neutrons and null will out damage a rupture with 425s and Republic fleet fusion. Both will be hitting at approximately 14kms, But thorax has Higher base damage eve though the rupture has a double damage bonus. If the rupture loads barrage he will only be dealing 110ish DPS vs the thorax at the same rang as thorax, and at falloff will be dealing less than 100 DPS.

Stabber fit the same way only has 194 DPS with Republic fleet fusion, And will only ever apply 60% of that do to fighting in falloff. So 116 DPS on average. Barrage does allow it to hit out to 30 km, But that is 61.6 DPS at that range . Autocannons could use some sort of Change, Cause that is pathetic, espically when you add in Pulse lasers.

Omen with Heavy pulse lasers and Scorch hits 28 KM with 221 DPS total with 88 DPS applied at max range. With INMulti its 277 DPS with 8km optimal and 6 KM fallof, Or 14km Total range, same as Thorax fit and it has more damage than either at that range.
Autocannons are below par in every stat
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#469 - 2015-01-03 21:02:42 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Baltec, Medium autos damage application is pretty ****, Especially in non falloff bonused hulls like the rupture.

For example, Using just ship bonuses and level 5 skills, a Thorax with Neutrons and null will out damage a rupture with 425s and Republic fleet fusion. Both will be hitting at approximately 14kms, But thorax has Higher base damage eve though the rupture has a double damage bonus. If the rupture loads barrage he will only be dealing 110ish DPS vs the thorax at the same rang as thorax, and at falloff will be dealing less than 100 DPS.

Stabber fit the same way only has 194 DPS with Republic fleet fusion, And will only ever apply 60% of that do to fighting in falloff. So 116 DPS on average. Barrage does allow it to hit out to 30 km, But that is 61.6 DPS at that range . Autocannons could use some sort of Change, Cause that is pathetic, espically when you add in Pulse lasers.

Omen with Heavy pulse lasers and Scorch hits 28 KM with 221 DPS total with 88 DPS applied at max range. With INMulti its 277 DPS with 8km optimal and 6 KM fallof, Or 14km Total range, same as Thorax fit and it has more damage than either at that range.
Autocannons are below par in every stat


So how do you explain the fact that a good number of a/c ships are among the most deadly in their class while both the blaster and laser ships are killing fewer ships?

EFT damage numbers are, to put it bluntly, near useless. For example, the large autos on my mach come out as 66km range, in game they are alphaing frigates all the way out to 90km. The only thing stopping them for going any further is the locking range of the ship.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#470 - 2015-01-03 21:22:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Baltec, Medium autos damage application is pretty ****, Especially in non falloff bonused hulls like the rupture.

For example, Using just ship bonuses and level 5 skills, a Thorax with Neutrons and null will out damage a rupture with 425s and Republic fleet fusion. Both will be hitting at approximately 14kms, But thorax has Higher base damage eve though the rupture has a double damage bonus. If the rupture loads barrage he will only be dealing 110ish DPS vs the thorax at the same rang as thorax, and at falloff will be dealing less than 100 DPS.

Stabber fit the same way only has 194 DPS with Republic fleet fusion, And will only ever apply 60% of that do to fighting in falloff. So 116 DPS on average. Barrage does allow it to hit out to 30 km, But that is 61.6 DPS at that range . Autocannons could use some sort of Change, Cause that is pathetic, espically when you add in Pulse lasers.

Omen with Heavy pulse lasers and Scorch hits 28 KM with 221 DPS total with 88 DPS applied at max range. With INMulti its 277 DPS with 8km optimal and 6 KM fallof, Or 14km Total range, same as Thorax fit and it has more damage than either at that range.
Autocannons are below par in every stat


So how do you explain the fact that a good number of a/c ships are among the most deadly in their class while both the blaster and laser ships are killing fewer ships?

EFT damage numbers are, to put it bluntly, near useless. For example, the large autos on my mach come out as 66km range, in game they are alphaing frigates all the way out to 90km. The only thing stopping them for going any further is the locking range of the ship.


Please provide a link to your source, otherwise for all we know you pulled the numbers out of your ass.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#471 - 2015-01-03 21:58:19 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Please provide a link to your source, otherwise for all we know you pulled the numbers out of your ass.


The KB database.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#472 - 2015-01-03 22:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Please provide a link to your source, otherwise for all we know you pulled the numbers out of your ass.


The KB database.


It's your job to support your viewpoint, not mine.

Also, EVEkill? Zkillboard? Another one I haven't heard of?
EVEkill no longer has that option to my knowledge.
Zkillboard doesn't either.

So please, do provide a link to your source.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#473 - 2015-01-03 22:17:55 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Please provide a link to your source, otherwise for all we know you pulled the numbers out of your ass.


The KB database.


It's your job to support your viewpoint, not mine.

Also, EVEkill? Zkillboard? Another one I haven't heard of?
EVEkill no longer has that option to my knowledge.
Zkillboard doesn't either.

So please, do provide a link to your source.


Zkill does.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#474 - 2015-01-03 22:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Please provide a link to your source, otherwise for all we know you pulled the numbers out of your ass.


The KB database.


It's your job to support your viewpoint, not mine.

Also, EVEkill? Zkillboard? Another one I haven't heard of?
EVEkill no longer has that option to my knowledge.
Zkillboard doesn't either.

So please, do provide a link to your source.


Zkill does.


Shame, it's no longer it's own page, and it's only the top 10. I'd like to see the most used weapons, as it would be a more useful picture of how medium autos are doing in EVE.

Still, working with limited number of ships listed, the Ishtar comes in at the number two ship in all of EVE, which is impressive, at 8800 kills. The Cynabal barely makes the list with 5400.

Only three cruisers (barring T3s) are on the list (Ishtar, Caracal, Cynabal, in that order as of my writing this), and only one is projectile.
The limited picture we have doesn't tell much, considering the Cynabal has quite a claim to fame with its 4.5 au/second warp speed, and we don't know if it's using autocannons or 720 artillery, like my own.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#475 - 2015-01-03 23:07:19 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Shame, it's no longer it's own page, and it's only the top 10. I'd like to see the most used weapons, as it would be a more useful picture of how medium autos are doing in EVE.

Still, working with limited number of ships listed, the Ishtar comes in at the number two ship in all of EVE, which is impressive, at 8800 kills. The Cynabal barely makes the list with 5400.

Only three cruisers (barring T3s) are on the list (Ishtar, Caracal, Cynabal, in that order as of my writing this), and only one is projectile.
The limited picture we have doesn't tell much, considering the Cynabal has quite a claim to fame with its 4.5 au/second warp speed, and we don't know if it's using autocannons or 720 artillery, like my own.


Last months kills:

Cynabal 21,740 kills. Most popular weapon was the 425mm auto.

Ishtar 37,390 kills. Oddly enough the most popular turret used on it was the 125mm auto.

Vagabond 9,630 kills, most popular weapons are autos.

In comparison the zealot got 7,059 kills.

Combat BC we see:

Cane 6,287 kills with the favorate weapons being the 220 and 425 autos.

Brutix 3,110 kills, the neutron being the favorate.

Myrm 4,603 kills, favorate weapon the hammerhead but the duel 180mm autos show up as the second favorate turret to fit.

Harbi 3,164 kills with heavy pulse being the go to weapon by far.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#476 - 2015-01-03 23:14:19 UTC
125mm auto cannons are the standard whore gun for most Ishtar fits. They are not actually doing damage, just counting coup.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mario Putzo
#477 - 2015-01-03 23:16:19 UTC
Is this thread real?

Autocannons are just fine and dandy.

How about we repurpose this thread to fix missiles instead which profoundly suck at every level.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#478 - 2015-01-03 23:37:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Shame, it's no longer it's own page, and it's only the top 10. I'd like to see the most used weapons, as it would be a more useful picture of how medium autos are doing in EVE.

Still, working with limited number of ships listed, the Ishtar comes in at the number two ship in all of EVE, which is impressive, at 8800 kills. The Cynabal barely makes the list with 5400.

Only three cruisers (barring T3s) are on the list (Ishtar, Caracal, Cynabal, in that order as of my writing this), and only one is projectile.
The limited picture we have doesn't tell much, considering the Cynabal has quite a claim to fame with its 4.5 au/second warp speed, and we don't know if it's using autocannons or 720 artillery, like my own.


Last months kills:

Cynabal 21,740 kills. Most popular weapon was the 425mm auto.

Ishtar 37,390 kills. Oddly enough the most popular turret used on it was the 125mm auto.

Vagabond 9,630 kills, most popular weapons are autos.

In comparison the zealot got 7,059 kills.

Combat BC we see:

Cane 6,287 kills with the favorate weapons being the 220 and 425 autos.

Brutix 3,110 kills, the neutron being the favorate.

Myrm 4,603 kills, favorate weapon the hammerhead but the duel 180mm autos show up as the second favorate turret to fit.

Harbi 3,164 kills with heavy pulse being the go to weapon by far.




Once again, a link would be appreciated, since I apparently cannot find the page where they list actual useful numbers beyond the top 10.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#479 - 2015-01-03 23:54:45 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Once again, a link would be appreciated, since I apparently cannot find the page where they list actual useful numbers beyond the top 10.


You need to look at the ship details.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#480 - 2015-01-04 00:55:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Once again, a link would be appreciated, since I apparently cannot find the page where they list actual useful numbers beyond the top 10.


You need to look at the ship details.


Thank you.

125's being popular on Ishtars doesn't say much, they've always been a whoregun used to get on KMs.

It seems to me the balance issue lies more with sentries, especially the Isthar, than autocannons. I'm not happy with Autocannons as they are, but Ishtars outclass everything else so severely that autocannons are not the number one issue I have with ship and weapon balancing right now.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.