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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#421 - 2015-01-03 04:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
baltec1 wrote:


It does matter as the rupture out damages your rax outside of antimatter on your fit and is firing into your ships resist hole. It has also been shooting at you from further out so it has done damage before you have started to damage it back.

Your rax's engagement envelope is less than 10km with null on paper, optimal is reduced by 40%. The rupture is going to overpower you if it is flown well.


Raxes are normally fit with rails and will easilly out run ruppies, and keep pace with stabbers. and will out damage both with long range weapons vs close range weapons.

the ruppy can barely fit arty, and is slow with no tackle. and the NONE of the stabber hulls can fit arty, while rax, ENIs and Diemost can 5 rails with ease, and can keep pace with matari quick close range counterparts. plus pulse lasers are essentially snipers anyway.

just about all matari ships are quick glass cannons which got completely ****** by so many nerfs it is not even funny.

- PG cant fit arty or nuets......lol utility highs
- agility, cant kite or drop angular
- they already had a lot of drawbacks
-- ****** tank
-- less guns
-- bad fitting

PS not calling for a hybrid nerf, just for the love of god let matari pilots actually fit their weapons and not be useless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#422 - 2015-01-03 04:49:02 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


New fits and tactics? Lol. We push the meta just like small gang and fleets. I make plenty of unique fits and have success at brawling frigs with artillery or large acs under 10km. Unlike you i dont have 10k F1 warriors to force into my fits and then imply im some kind of EVE god. You are so cool.


Solo kills are easy. Fighting an IRC fleet of 90 with 12 is hard. Taking on the entirety of highsec with 30 guys and winning is hard. Taking on MM and the old NC with just one corp of 20 pilots was hard. Yet again you provide us with another myth of the null sec blob has no skill.


Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Yep, ignoring the solo pvp aspect still. Most of those hurricanes you quoted were in gangs or gate camps. Which are not relavent scenarios for discussing ac application at falloff, as per OP.


Its entirely relevant. The stats show that the auto cane in in the top tier of BC, or are we to believe that none of the other BC take part in gangs and gate camps?
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#423 - 2015-01-03 04:49:12 UTC
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.

-Badman
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#424 - 2015-01-03 04:52:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
I guess that makes me an EFT warrior as well, and those fits I posted are fits I've used successfully. You know why?

Its called engagement profile, what can I attacked and stand a good chance of killing in a variety of scenarios. Blaster boats are favored in this contest over Auto Cannon boats, extending the falloff of auto cannon boats would give them a slightly larger engagement profile and make them competitive.

That's the whole point here, outside of kiting Minimitar have a very narrow band of ships they can go toe to toe without being seriously outmatched with auto-cannon damage projection being one of their major issues.


If they are so bad why are they the most popular weapon on nearly every matari turret ship?

I would geuss the same reason any ship with bonuses favors their bonuses weapons.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#425 - 2015-01-03 05:04:03 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
[quote=baltec1]


Raxes are normally fit with rails and will easilly out run ruppies, and keep pace with stabbers. and will out damage both with long range weapons vs close range weapons.

the ruppy can barely fit arty, and is slow with no tackle. and the NONE of the stabber hulls can fit arty, while rax, ENIs and Diemost can 5 rails with ease, and can keep pace with matari quick close range counterparts. plus pulse lasers are essentially snipers anyway.

just about all matari ships are quick glass cannons which got completely ****** by so many nerfs it is not even funny.

- PG cant fit arty or nuets......lol utility highs
- agility, cant kite or drop angular
- they already had a lot of drawbacks
-- ****** tank
-- less guns
-- bad fitting



rax with mwd 2028

stabber mwd 2435

rax will not fit 250mm or 200mm rails with ease, arty is not the only long range weapon that ships struggle to fit, its a trait nearly every turret boat has.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#426 - 2015-01-03 05:05:59 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.


So if they are so bad why are they ALL on par with the other ships out there or better?
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#427 - 2015-01-03 05:10:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.


So if they are so bad why are they ALL on par with the other ships out there or better?



They are not.

-Badman
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#428 - 2015-01-03 05:19:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
I guess that makes me an EFT warrior as well, and those fits I posted are fits I've used successfully. You know why?

Its called engagement profile, what can I attacked and stand a good chance of killing in a variety of scenarios. Blaster boats are favored in this contest over Auto Cannon boats, extending the falloff of auto cannon boats would give them a slightly larger engagement profile and make them competitive.

That's the whole point here, outside of kiting Minimitar have a very narrow band of ships they can go toe to toe without being seriously outmatched with auto-cannon damage projection being one of their major issues.


If they are so bad why are they the most popular weapon on nearly every matari turret ship?


Baltec, I am not saying you are wrong about everything in this thread, but this is one of the less intelligent (or most trolling) things you have written. You cannot seriously be questioning why people would fit the weapons that match the hulls' bonuses. The test for when something is broken in Eve should not be "it's so bad you are literally better off fitting another racial weapon on that hull." Perhaps auto cannons get fitted to nearly every Matari turret ship because Matari turret ships have bonuses to projectile weapons? And artillery are hard to fit and kind of a niche weapon?

Like I said, not saying you are wrong about everything, but that statement is just plain unreasonable.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#429 - 2015-01-03 05:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.


So if they are so bad why are they ALL on par with the other ships out there or better?



They are not.


According the the KM data they are. About the only cruiser that is doing poorly is the Agouror.Cynables using 425mm autos scored more kills alone than every single phantasm. 220mm vulcan cynables killed twice as many ships as every single orthrus. No other pirate faction cruiser even gets close to matching the cynable and here you are asking for it to be buffed. Even the Vagabond, a ship you all hate, comes in as the third most deadly HAC.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#430 - 2015-01-03 05:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.


So if they are so bad why are they ALL on par with the other ships out there or better?



They are not.


According the the KM data they are. About the only cruiser that is doing poorly is the Agouror.Cynables using 425mm autos scored more kills alone than every single phantasm. 220mm vulcan cynables killed twice as many ships as every single orthrus. No other pirate faction cruiser even gets close to matching the cynable and here you are asking for it to be buffed.


Are you actually comparing a logi cruiser to the cynabal ... ?

Orthrus is far better than the cynabal, his only problem is his cost.

Phantasm is not an usual ship because almost nobody give it a try, too many time spent as a **** cruiser.

Then again, most of the ppl get cynabal because of it's past, his actual price and his mobility.

Actually, you can't effectively fly a kitting cynabal, that's a fact, try by yourself if you dont trust us.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#431 - 2015-01-03 05:38:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Because what other f******* choice to Mini pilots have? Arty and no tank? Or should they just disregard ship bonuses entirely? Minimitar don't have resistance bonus' or drone damage bonus', more than half of them are double gun damage bonuses. IE The Rupture, Cane, Tempest.


So if they are so bad why are they ALL on par with the other ships out there or better?



They are not.


According the the KM data they are. About the only cruiser that is doing poorly is the Agouror.Cynables using 425mm autos scored more kills alone than every single phantasm. 220mm vulcan cynables killed twice as many ships as every single orthrus. No other pirate faction cruiser even gets close to matching the cynable and here you are asking for it to be buffed.


Now actually analyze the data. What % are frigate kills? What % are solo vs gang? What % is fit as brawler? What % is flown as a kiter?

Without that information, the data is worthless. You are trying to manipulate the arguement to suit your agenda without providing a clear break down of your numbers. Also havent seen any links to the numbers you're quoting. You are the one posting this info, i would expect pasteing a web address isnt too difficult?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#432 - 2015-01-03 05:47:05 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:


Are you actually comparing a logi cruiser to the cynabal ... ?


No, Im pointing out a ship that actually is underused.

Daide Vondrichnov wrote:

Orthrus is far better than the cynabal, his only problem is his cost.
Price isn't a barrier to an overpowered ship.

Daide Vondrichnov wrote:

Phantasm is not an usual ship because almost nobody give it a try, too many time spent as a **** cruiser.

Then again, most of the ppl get cynabal because of it's past, his actual price and his mobility.

Actually, you can't effectively fly a kitting cynabal, that's a fact, try by yourself if you dont trust us.


People don't buy these things for their nostalgic value, they get them because they are effective murder machines. For kitting you only need to reach longpoint range.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#433 - 2015-01-03 05:55:14 UTC
You are aware that the Cyna has been around for much longer than many of the other Pirate cruisers right? And that the Phantasm just recently had its bonus' reworked?


Baltec1, your a troll and you've dragged my thread down into this BS. Thanks.

-Badman
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#434 - 2015-01-03 05:58:06 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Now actually analyze the data. What % are frigate kills? What % are solo vs gang? What % is fit as brawler? What % is flown as a kiter?

Without that information, the data is worthless. You are trying to manipulate the arguement to suit your agenda without providing a clear break down of your numbers. Also havent seen any links to the numbers you're quoting. You are the one posting this info, i would expect pasteing a web address isnt too difficult?


Looking up this data isn't hard, it is all publicly available. Also how am I using this data to suit my agenda? I am comparing the kills in the exact same way with every other ship. For example 9,630 ships were killed by vagabond's while 4,085 were killed by sacrilege's last month.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#435 - 2015-01-03 06:01:15 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
You are aware that the Cyna has been around for much longer than many of the other Pirate cruisers right? And that the Phantasm just recently had its bonus' reworked?


Baltec1, your a troll and you've dragged my thread down into this BS. Thanks.


The cynabal is just as old as the other pirate faction ships and it is out killing the vigilant too. Giving facts in a thread asking to undo the TE nerfs for autos is not trolling.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#436 - 2015-01-03 06:02:39 UTC
Yeah those Orthrus' have been around forever right? They are less than 6 months old. Enough.

-Badman
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#437 - 2015-01-03 06:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
You are aware that the Cyna has been around for much longer than many of the other Pirate cruisers right? And that the Phantasm just recently had its bonus' reworked?


Baltec1, your a troll and you've dragged my thread down into this BS. Thanks.


The cynabal is just as old as the other pirate faction ships and it is out killing the vigilant too. Giving facts in a thread asking to undo the TE nerfs for autos is not trolling.


Btw cynabal was the go to ship during many years, and was pretty expensive for many players (over 250m).

Vigilant is pretty situational and expensive as hell, there is only few situation were vigilant will overcome a loki web, because of it's range and tank.

baltec1 wrote:

No, Im pointing out a ship that actually is underused.


Ofc that the augoror is used, but why the **** are you talking about KB stats of a LOGI ship... It's not supposed to get on KM ...

About nostalgia, it's a fact as many ppl used to fly it during a lot of long roam, it's a lovely boat, fast, agile and few ppl in my wh still fly it sometimes for the fun even while we are flaming them.

We even tried to do a cynabal arty doctrine to use this ship...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#438 - 2015-01-03 06:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Yeah those Orthrus' have been around forever right? They are less than 6 months old. Enough.


The cynable, Vigilant, phantasm, gila and ashimmu are all old ships. Most pirate faction ships are not new, what you said was a lie.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#439 - 2015-01-03 06:17:02 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:


Btw cynabal was the go to ship during many years, and was pretty expensive for many players (over 250m).


It was the go to ship because it was horribly overpowered. This thread is asking to undo one of the big nerfs that were needed.


Daide Vondrichnov wrote:

Ofc that the augoror is used, but why the **** are you talking about KB stats of a LOGI ship... It's not supposed to get on KM ...


People have been saying a/c ships are not popular and dont get used. The agouror is an example of what an underused ship looks like.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#440 - 2015-01-03 06:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:


Daide Vondrichnov wrote:

Ofc that the augoror is used, but why the **** are you talking about KB stats of a LOGI ship... It's not supposed to get on KM ...


People have been saying a/c ships are not popular and dont get used. The agouror is an example of what an underused ship looks like.


How do you rank up on killboards ?

By appearing on KILLMAILS !

How are you supposed to appear on killmail while you are LOGI ? (Scimitar and Guardian are well ranked as they are used in a lot of fleet setup, more ship more leech, is that hard to understand ?)

I hope that you are not serious while saying this kind of things... Shocked