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Doctor Valate's Guide To Science

Author
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#1 - 2015-01-01 12:21:12 UTC
Good morning capsuleers of the IGS, and others.

It would seem that Science is a big thing once again, on the IGS, and there has been much criticism of some things which have appeared.

Criticism such as:
Quote:
"I find it interesting that there is no specific effort to educate capsuleers on proper scientific method. In particular I find it disheartening that there is no concerted effort to train individuals in making observations. This is a necessary building block of proper scientific methodology, non?"


I, too have observed such problems and sub optimal publications of what could have been interesting scientific topics.

I observed it in the past with the Arek'Jaalan initiative under Dr. Tukoss, and observe it again now, in the various efforts under the name of A'J, and in numerous other programs.

In a bid to improve standards amongst the "new A'J", a short time ago, I wrote a document and submitted it to the mailing list, and to Gal-net in general, where it was well received.

It is too large to reproduce on the IGS. The article is located here:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Doctor_Valate%27s_Guide_To_Science


I feel that perhaps, it could do with being publicised a little better, so I mention it here and now, to open it up for discussion and debate, in the hope that it will result in an improvement in the level of scientific discussion we see here on the IGS.

Sincerely

V. Valate

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#2 - 2015-01-01 12:49:08 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Good morning capsuleers of the IGS, and others.

It would seem that Science is a big thing once again, on the IGS, and there has been much criticism of some things which have appeared.

Criticism such as:
Quote:
"I find it interesting that there is no specific effort to educate capsuleers on proper scientific method. In particular I find it disheartening that there is no concerted effort to train individuals in making observations. This is a necessary building block of proper scientific methodology, non?"


I, too have observed such problems and sub optimal publications of what could have been interesting scientific topics.

I observed it in the past with the Arek'Jaalan initiative under Dr. Tukoss, and observe it again now, in the various efforts under the name of A'J, and in numerous other programs.

In a bid to improve standards amongst the "new A'J", a short time ago, I wrote a document and submitted it to the mailing list, and to Gal-net in general, where it was well received.

It is too large to reproduce on the IGS. The article is located here:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Doctor_Valate%27s_Guide_To_Science


I feel that perhaps, it could do with being publicised a little better, so I mention it here and now, to open it up for discussion and debate, in the hope that it will result in an improvement in the level of scientific discussion we see here on the IGS.

Sincerely

V. Valate


I can find no fault with this.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#3 - 2015-01-01 14:04:48 UTC
Always write the result down. That's what make science science.
Thea Isotalo
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-01-01 14:13:16 UTC
Proper scientific method does not necessarily mean you are doing good science.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#5 - 2015-01-01 14:18:12 UTC
Thea Isotalo wrote:
Proper scientific method does not necessarily mean you are doing good science.




Well, true.

However, a methodical approach, makes it clearer to identify good science and bad science.

It helps people turn bad science into good science, and good science into great science.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2015-01-01 14:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunarisse Aspenstar
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Good morning capsuleers of the IGS, and others.

It would seem that Science is a big thing once again, on the IGS, and there has been much criticism of some things which have appeared.

Criticism such as:
Quote:
"I find it interesting that there is no specific effort to educate capsuleers on proper scientific method. In particular I find it disheartening that there is no concerted effort to train individuals in making observations. This is a necessary building block of proper scientific methodology, non?"


I, too have observed such problems and sub optimal publications of what could have been interesting scientific topics.

I observed it in the past with the Arek'Jaalan initiative under Dr. Tukoss, and observe it again now, in the various efforts under the name of A'J, and in numerous other programs.

In a bid to improve standards amongst the "new A'J", a short time ago, I wrote a document and submitted it to the mailing list, and to Gal-net in general, where it was well received.

It is too large to reproduce on the IGS. The article is located here:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Doctor_Valate%27s_Guide_To_Science


I feel that perhaps, it could do with being publicised a little better, so I mention it here and now, to open it up for discussion and debate, in the hope that it will result in an improvement in the level of scientific discussion we see here on the IGS.

Sincerely

V. Valate


I can find no fault with this.


*grinds her teeth and after a very long pause says flatly* I also can find no fault with this. Fairly well done in terms of presentation issues. Other issues perhaps should be the subject of other guides. Perhaps Mr. Ixiris could take the time to do one on the Scientific Method.
Anslo
Scope Works
#7 - 2015-01-01 14:58:39 UTC
I don't know why this idiot proof guide makes me giggle but it does. Nice job.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Anslo
Scope Works
#8 - 2015-01-01 16:34:07 UTC
At least they contribute. What do you contribute Rella? Aside from wrecks and a dramatic corp.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Wendrika Hydreiga
#9 - 2015-01-02 04:05:11 UTC
While I'm more than glad for helping IGS snapping out of its doldrums and dawn a new age of scientific progress, I'm pretty much in disagreement with this whole "Guide for Science" you have going here Miss Valate. With all respect of course!

Science without results is just witchcraft!

In a society in which like a bizzare quantum spin mechanic, the state of being of pretty much all matter in the cluster can be summed to "shoot it", "don't shoot it", and my personal favourite "it's docked/can't shoot it", do we really have the time to go through all these loops in the pursuit of our scientific goals? I think not!

You don't sit down over a microscope and hope molecules or whatever spell out the secrets of the universe! You say something like "I want sub-warp speeds on a cruiser bordering the speed of light" and you throw ISK at it and burn braincells at the problem until you get what you want!

That's what sience is about!
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-01-02 04:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
While I'm more than glad for helping IGS snapping out of its doldrums and dawn a new age of scientific progress, I'm pretty much in disagreement with this whole "Guide for Science" you have going here Miss Valate. With all respect of course!

Science without results is just witchcraft!

In a society in which like a bizzare quantum spin mechanic, the state of being of pretty much all matter in the cluster can be summed to "shoot it", "don't shoot it", and my personal favourite "it's docked/can't shoot it", do we really have the time to go through all these loops in the pursuit of our scientific goals? I think not!

You don't sit down over a microscope and hope molecules or whatever spell out the secrets of the universe! You say something like "I want sub-warp speeds on a cruiser bordering the speed of light" and you throw ISK at it and burn braincells at the problem until you get what you want!

That's what sience is about!


False! Science must always be held to scrutiny! You must make sure that the experiment be repeated to acquire the same results AND that the results cannot be disproved AND it can be supported by alternative experiments!

You throw ISK at it, of course, because as it turns out, science is an expensive pursuit. For every breakthrough there's hundreds, perhaps thousands more that simply fall apart and fail to generate any desired result. However, what happens after you get the ISK to set up all the tools required to discern the truth of the matter?

You form a hypothesis, you design and run the experiment, you then either redo the experiment because the results simply do not match up with the hypothesis, or you rework the hypothesis to try again. And again. And again. Then you repeat the experiment to ensure that the results can be repeated.

What happens after that? You DISPROVE your own hypothesis. Or you submit it to peer review and have them disprove it for you. You want to make sure there's no alternative hypothesis behind the results you are getting before you can bump it up to theory. Because science and the knowledge it provides is not perfect. It is limited by human knowledge and senses and other follies. It must be confirmed, again and again and again, until you are triple sure! And even then the acquired knowledge is only tentatively true until proven otherwise in a latter date.

This is why everything must be documented! The entire experiment must be documented. Results, methods, each and every detail has to be put into writing. This is so that the experiment can be studied, repeated, re-tested, until it is certain, without a doubt, that the hypothesis is ironclad enough to be made into a theory. It is also why the experiments had to be ethical, to ensure that nobody, NOBODY AT ALL, can hesitate to rerun the whole experiment over and over and over for years to come until they are satisfied that the hypothesis, and the resultant theory, holds true, at least enough for practical applications. If you do NOT do any of these, you are failing the purpose of Science! Getting the result, without stating, black-and-white, how the result is achieved, is no better than witchcraft!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#11 - 2015-01-02 04:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I don't wish to be one of those people, but considering miss Hydreiga's lack of formal education and seemingly complete absence of knowledge of any sort of scientific method, and her apparant misunderstanding about genetics at large, I am becoming increasingly skeptical that this experiment everyone is making a fuss about has actually taken place, and is not some sort of con.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#12 - 2015-01-02 04:52:25 UTC
Perhaps we should all go about becoming a problem for Ms. Hydreiga and hope she throws money at us to make us go away.

-Eran
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-01-02 05:22:08 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Perhaps we should all go about becoming a problem for Ms. Hydreiga and hope she throws money at us to make us go away.

-Eran


She's probably just going to call us mean and throw a tantrum.

I do not doubt her intelligence, but I really doubt her maturity.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Karynn Denton
Lekhantsi Salvage Depot
#14 - 2015-01-02 09:43:14 UTC
For someone who deals a lot in chemicals, I don't have much interest in science; I pay those who do to worry about it all for me.

And to be honest, scientists are dull, obnoxious people at best. Do we really want to encourage them to share more of their drivel?
They should just stay in their labs, do their work and keep quiet.

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master

Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#15 - 2015-01-02 11:12:29 UTC
Anslo wrote:
At least they contribute. What do you contribute Rella? Aside from wrecks and a dramatic corp.


Why are you replying to a comment that doesn't seem to exist? Did I miss something?

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-01-02 14:52:50 UTC
Karynn Denton wrote:
For someone who deals a lot in chemicals, I don't have much interest in science; I pay those who do to worry about it all for me.

And to be honest, scientists are dull, obnoxious people at best. Do we really want to encourage them to share more of their drivel?
They should just stay in their labs, do their work and keep quiet.


When it comes to Science and Technology, sharing between peers is a must. Even if the papers aren't always released to the public, they are usually, required in fact, shared between other researchers and the odd engineers. Of course, some contributors share more freely than others.

By that I meant you might need to make a transaction to read some papers beyond just the abstract.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Karynn Denton
Lekhantsi Salvage Depot
#17 - 2015-01-02 18:49:34 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Karynn Denton wrote:
For someone who deals a lot in chemicals, I don't have much interest in science; I pay those who do to worry about it all for me.

And to be honest, scientists are dull, obnoxious people at best. Do we really want to encourage them to share more of their drivel?
They should just stay in their labs, do their work and keep quiet.


When it comes to Science and Technology, sharing between peers is a must. Even if the papers aren't always released to the public, they are usually, required in fact, shared between other researchers and the odd engineers. Of course, some contributors share more freely than others.

By that I meant you might need to make a transaction to read some papers beyond just the abstract.


Oh sure, I've no problem with them muttering amongst themselves. Given their appalling social-skills, they could do with the practice.

Don't they have their own forums or channels to babble in their elitist gobbledygook?

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master

Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2015-01-02 19:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunarisse Aspenstar
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
While I'm more than glad for helping IGS snapping out of its doldrums and dawn a new age of scientific progress, I'm pretty much in disagreement with this whole "Guide for Science" you have going here Miss Valate. With all respect of course!

Science without results is just witchcraft!

In a society in which like a bizzare quantum spin mechanic, the state of being of pretty much all matter in the cluster can be summed to "shoot it", "don't shoot it", and my personal favourite "it's docked/can't shoot it", do we really have the time to go through all these loops in the pursuit of our scientific goals? I think not!

You don't sit down over a microscope and hope molecules or whatever spell out the secrets of the universe! You say something like "I want sub-warp speeds on a cruiser bordering the speed of light" and you throw ISK at it and burn braincells at the problem until you get what you want!

That's what sience is about!


Ms. Hydreiga,

I think perhaps you are confusing basic, or "pure", science with applied science.

One definition I've found on the Galnet of "applied science" explains "Applied science is a discipline of science that applies existing scientific knowledge to develop more practical applications, like technology or inventions."

However, to develop that knowledge, you need basic science to understand the fundamental laws of the universe and the different branches of the sciencies. The Amarr of course, believe, that God has laid down these laws and have sought to discover them - much of the Scriptures comprises the results of this search. Others of less spiritual bent (or no bent, frankly) recognize that the universe has laws or rules by which it operates (in the sense that certain matters will be repeatable and predictable) and have sought to discover them. Others then seek to apply those laws for more practical applications - hence applied science.

The ethics or morality of the methods of research or the applications of science is another aspect all together.

Uncordially yours,

Lunarisse Aspenstar Daphiti

P.S. I have added another 10 million to your bounty.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#19 - 2015-01-02 21:27:31 UTC
Oh... So that's what I've been doing. "Applied Science". Neat! So that makes me... An Applied Scientist?

Well Lady Aspenstar, two can play that game! I've added 10 million to my own bounty aswell! That will show you!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-01-03 06:58:09 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Thea Isotalo wrote:
Proper scientific method does not necessarily mean you are doing good science.




Well, true.

However, a methodical approach, makes it clearer to identify good science and bad science.

It helps people turn bad science into good science, and good science into great science.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with this.

Proper scientific method ensures, that your results are described in the extent for everyone to be able to repeat the experiment and obtain same values; it also ensures that the conclusions are based on your data and on reported results of others, that can be confirmed as well; and it ensures that the knowledge you obtain is unique and meaningful.

That is basically what makes good science.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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