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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#381 - 2015-01-02 12:54:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
No response from the ac is fine crowd? Ive asked baltec a yes/no question with no answer, and gave kaer the option to prove me wrong. Yet, not a word from either. Other than typical smugness without anything relavent to back it up.

Going through kaers killboard though.. i see no crows lost to hurricanes? I see crows lost to arty thrashers, which arty is not ac. Also, every single one of your dead crows is a **** fit with no tank. The only minny ship i see that youve lost is the loki, i cant even find kills you have where you were in a minny ship? All your kills are in gangs too, except when your ganking indys (solo pvp right?).

You can fly damnation, loki, heretic, hyperion, intys and got lots of t2 skills apparently.. odd i dont see vagabonds or stabbers as ships you actually fly. Which you can, because you can fly loki. Hmmm.. makes your arguements pretty paper thin. How bout you fly those ships and then maybe your opinion will have some merit. As it stands your just another person going off ac data from 2012 before they were nerfed.


So far the only person to post any kind of useage evidence is myself. You say these things are underpowered yet all evidence shows autos are in widespread use on multiple platforms and all of them are on par with every other race out there. You keep on saying I don't answer your question yet if we look back we can see I have repeatedly answered your questions and provided statistical evidence to back myself up. So far you have posted nothing that shows a/c are underpowered or that a/c are not being used.



Guess i have to spell it out for you, do i need to put neon signs around it too?

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Answer me this. If we used your logic with market data, and instead of A/C we replaced it with heavy missiles. Heavy missiles are used frequently in PVE, put on drakes, cyclones and w/e else can fit them. Market data will show numerous HML sales, and drake/cyclone sales. Does that mean heavy missiles are good at applying damage in a PvP scenario? Don't side step this question, don't re-word, its a yes or no question. Its the exact same principle you're applying to this conversation to a/c's.


We are not talking about support either. We're talking strictly the weapon system in its base form. Just like i don't expect to have a rapier/loki for a/c's, neither should you with HML.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
You are so narrow minded in this debate, you can't think past fall-off bonus = everything fits a/c's to it. Don't you remember the abaddon's with artillery on them that was a pretty common doctrine back in the day? They completely ignored the bonuses on that hull in favor of the armor resist, and 8 turret slots to fit artillery. But, using your "market data" an abaddon back then would look good because they were selling, so 8 lasers on an abaddon is perfectly fine in a fleet setting right?


The data you provided is worthless. It is only looking at the ships being sold, not what weapon system their using, or how well that weapon system applies in fall-off.

Tell me, what does market data tell you about scyfi? Its got split bonuses. Does it tell you people fit missiles or turrets to it? Or just tell you that people buy them?

Your whole "evidence" is just misdirection, and not accurate.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#382 - 2015-01-02 13:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The data you provided is worthless. It is only looking at the ships being sold, not what weapon system their using, or how well that weapon system applies in fall-off.

Tell me, what does market data tell you about scyfi? Its got split bonuses. Does it tell you people fit missiles or turrets to it? Or just tell you that people buy them?

Your whole "evidence" is just misdirection, and not accurate.


Now use the market data WITH the usage data from the KM database. This is your entire problem, you don't look at the big picture.

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#383 - 2015-01-02 13:45:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Show me a null doctrine that uses marauders.

Ships don't have to be used in main fleets to be good, that said we have a SFI fleet.
I do agree with that reasonning, I may have badly formulated this.

That being said, SFI is the one AC ship I still use, because its an awesome sig tanker and murder frigates, and can out-track medium weapons at hug range, if one is not webbed too hard.

But then we are talking about the ship being good, not the weapon system in itself.

Looking through killboards for the last 2 years. you can see an almost complete decline of AC ships usage in favor of hybrid weapon systems. Hurricanes, Cynabals and Vagabonds were on the top 20 ships used with medium AC at the time. Cane got nerfed very hard and practically disapeared in the current meta (that goes for most BC though). You see very few Vagabonds anymore. Still some Cynabal presence though, likely due warp speed, and yes, projection.

Projection bonused AC are still the one ships that can beat Blasters boats due to added range (still pitiful dps), non-projection bonused medium AC get outshined at all range by Blasters.


Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2015-01-02 13:54:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.


In the years I've been playing I have not once seen an AC ScyFI. light missiles will give you better projection, application, don't give a **** about range, and better burst DPS.

plus this is a ship you really never want to be in 220 range.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#385 - 2015-01-02 13:59:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


The data you provided is worthless. It is only looking at the ships being sold, not what weapon system their using, or how well that weapon system applies in fall-off.

Tell me, what does market data tell you about scyfi? Its got split bonuses. Does it tell you people fit missiles or turrets to it? Or just tell you that people buy them?

Your whole "evidence" is just misdirection, and not accurate.


Now use the market data WITH the usage data from the KM database. This is your entire problem, you don't look at the big picture.

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.


Damn your dense. Still no answer to the question i asked.

Also a scythe doesnt kite with acs, it brawls. Tell me again how well your market and usage data tells me how well acs apply in falloff. The entire point of this thread is ac falloff/application while kiting. Not if acs are being sold or that scythes/cyna or any other ship is selling.

Just because someone puts acs on a ship, doesnt mean they kite with them. Ac application at range is garbage. That is what the OP refers to.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#386 - 2015-01-02 14:18:30 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.


In the years I've been playing I have not once seen an AC ScyFI. light missiles will give you better projection, application, don't give a **** about range, and better burst DPS.

plus this is a ship you really never want to be in 220 range.





They brawl with 220s. Normally 3 gyros dual prop with XLASB. Problem there is scyfi is so fast it can outtrack itself with ab. Dual armor rep with HAMs work better. Since no tracking and can sig tank better.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#387 - 2015-01-02 15:50:03 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.


In the years I've been playing I have not once seen an AC ScyFI. light missiles will give you better projection, application, don't give a **** about range, and better burst DPS.

plus this is a ship you really never want to be in 220 range.





They brawl with 220s. Normally 3 gyros dual prop with XLASB. Problem there is scyfi is so fast it can outtrack itself with ab. Dual armor rep with HAMs work better. Since no tracking and can sig tank better.

would one not then be better to use the SFI with its tracking bonus?

I admit I never tried to fit a XLASB on a Fleet Stabber.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#388 - 2015-01-02 16:24:04 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The most popular weapon on the scythe fleet issue is the 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II.


In the years I've been playing I have not once seen an AC ScyFI. light missiles will give you better projection, application, don't give a **** about range, and better burst DPS.

plus this is a ship you really never want to be in 220 range.





They brawl with 220s. Normally 3 gyros dual prop with XLASB. Problem there is scyfi is so fast it can outtrack itself with ab. Dual armor rep with HAMs work better. Since no tracking and can sig tank better.

would one not then be better to use the SFI with its tracking bonus?

I admit I never tried to fit a XLASB on a Fleet Stabber.


Stabber FI is better for typical armor brawling. For sig tanking, scyfi is better since it has the sig of a dessie before links or booster. Plus 5th mid useful for dual prop.

Scyfi is also faster than stabber FI, which is why they are brawlers. They can chase down faster ships, scram/web and orbit and mitigate a lot of damage. Then if they take damage, dual armor reps can normally handle what gets through.

The only kiting scyfi i know of is with RLML, which is normally pretty potent. Doesnt use ac or arty to kite though, because it doesnt work.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#389 - 2015-01-02 17:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Damn your dense. Still no answer to the question i asked.

Also a scythe doesnt kite with acs, it brawls. Tell me again how well your market and usage data tells me how well acs apply in falloff. The entire point of this thread is ac falloff/application while kiting. Not if acs are being sold or that scythes/cyna or any other ship is selling.

Just because someone puts acs on a ship, doesnt mean they kite with them. Ac application at range is garbage. That is what the OP refers to.


And yet, when we look at the matari lineup the bulk of the ships are fitting a/c as their weapon of choice and are either on par in lethality with the other options out there or ahead of the pack. The cane for example scored vastly more kills than the ferox, near twice as many as the harbi, proph, brutix and a good deal more than the mym and drake.

The cane has no projection bonus yet it out killed everything else in its class and the most popular weapon on it is autocannons. So, how is it possible that autos are underpowered with such evidence? After all, your biggest gripe is with blasters yet the most powerful DPS boat using med blasters got half the kills of the cane.

See, I have actual data supporting me here. Do you have anything that shows a/c are not being used? Because so far there is no evidence backing you up here. Even your main argument about range isn't all that compelling given that your gripe is over blasters, a weapon that has less range. So far all you want is to undo the TE nerf and roll that range into the guns themselves, giving them a very much unfair advantage that they enjoyed before the nerf.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#390 - 2015-01-02 17:35:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Even your main argument about range isn't all that compelling given that your gripe is over blasters, a weapon that has less range.

This is not really the best argument to flaunt around though, given blasters with Nul have similar dps than non-projection bonused AC at range, and way better at short range.

I don't know about Canes being over-represented, maybe because, like me, people have so many of them all over the place that they tend to use them instead of trashing them.

Admiteddly, if I could still fit a medium neut on my Canes without gimping my fit, I would maybe use them still. Fitting room for only a small neut is crap. But then that's the Cane's overnerf, not an AC thing.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#391 - 2015-01-02 17:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Starrakatt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Even your main argument about range isn't all that compelling given that your gripe is over blasters, a weapon that has less range.

This is not really the best argument to flaunt around though, given blasters with Nul have similar dps than non-projection bonused AC at range, and way better at short range.

I don't know about Canes being over-represented, maybe because, like me, people have so many of them all over the place that they tend to use them instead of trashing them.

Admiteddly, if I could still fit a medium neut on my Canes without gimping my fit, I would maybe use them still. Fitting room for only a small neut is crap. But then that's the Cane's overnerf, not an AC thing.


Navy cane is what you want or the sleipnirBlink
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#392 - 2015-01-02 17:41:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Damn your dense. Still no answer to the question i asked.

Also a scythe doesnt kite with acs, it brawls. Tell me again how well your market and usage data tells me how well acs apply in falloff. The entire point of this thread is ac falloff/application while kiting. Not if acs are being sold or that scythes/cyna or any other ship is selling.

Just because someone puts acs on a ship, doesnt mean they kite with them. Ac application at range is garbage. That is what the OP refers to.


And yet, when we look at the matari lineup the bulk of the ships are fitting a/c as their weapon of choice and are either on par in lethality with the other options out there or ahead of the pack. The cane for example scored vastly more kills than the ferox, near twice as many as the harbi, proph, brutix and a good deal more than the mym and drake.

The cane has no projection bonus yet it out killed everything else in its class and the most popular weapon on it is autocannons. So, how is it possible that autos are underpowered with such evidence? After all, your biggest gripe is with blasters yet the most powerful DPS boat using med blasters got half the kills of the cane.

See, I have actual data supporting me here. Do you have anything that shows a/c are not being used? Because so far there is no evidence backing you up here. Even your main argument about range isn't all that compelling given that your gripe is over blasters, a weapon that has less range.


Blasters project the same as acs with null. Blasters are king of close range but also project the same as acs. Making blasters the better choice to brawl in almost any case. That is part of the problem and why they are mentioned.

Out of those canes, how many had support ships to actually get tackle? Canes are slow, and people tend to avoid ramming them. Also, canes show up on gate camps often. Where multiple support ships are for instalock tackle/web. Not exactly the environment that is being discussed. You are misdirecting and trying to derail the thread. There are too many variables in your data that you havent accounted for. It also tells us nothing about what range they died at vs the cane or how well acs apply dps at falloff range while kiting.

You still have not answered the question i brought up a couple posts ago. Dont want to answer something that will bring your market data crashing down?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#393 - 2015-01-02 18:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Blasters project the same as acs with null.


No they don't. 220s fire just past null range on med neutrons on paper, in reality the 220s get at least 10km more range than implied in EFT and cause enough damage at this range to effectively pose a risk to any buffer cruisers and frigates. This is before we add on the TE which most matari ship will be packing as they have to room to fit them.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

That is part of the problem and why they are mentioned.


Don't brawl with a blaster boat, pull range.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Out of those canes, how many had support ships to actually get tackle? Canes are slow, and people tend to avoid ramming them. Also, canes show up on gate camps often. Where multiple support ships are for instalock tackle/web. Not exactly the environment that is being discussed. You are misdirecting and trying to derail the thread. There are too many variables in your data that you havent accounted for. It also tells us nothing about what range they died at vs the cane or how well acs apply dps at falloff range while kiting.


How many of those brutix had support to get tackle? People very much avoid ramming into a brutix. They are also just as likely to have multiple support ships. The enviroment is exactly the same. I am misdirecting nothing, you are bitching about med autos, we are talking about a ship that uses med autos. What variables have I not accounted for? What does it matter at what range they died at? they died all the same. It tells use that autos are killing things effectivly.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

You still have not answered the question i brought up a couple posts ago. Dont want to answer something that will bring your market data crashing down?


I have answered every question you have asked of me, I will not be repeating myself just so you can ignore my answers yet again. Ironically, you have not answered a single one of mine or countered any of my evidence. Heres another, if, as you think, autos are poor in firepower and are matched by blasters for range why is it that the Myrmidons second most used turret is the Duel 180mm auto cannon?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#394 - 2015-01-02 18:58:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Blasters project the same as acs with null.


No they don't. 220s fire just past null range on med neutrons on paper, in reality the 220s get at least 10km more range than implied in EFT and cause enough damage at this range to effectively pose a risk to any buffer cruisers and frigates. This is before we add on the TE which most matari ship will be packing as they have to room to fit them.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

That is part of the problem and why they are mentioned.


Don't brawl with a blaster boat, pull range.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Out of those canes, how many had support ships to actually get tackle? Canes are slow, and people tend to avoid ramming them. Also, canes show up on gate camps often. Where multiple support ships are for instalock tackle/web. Not exactly the environment that is being discussed. You are misdirecting and trying to derail the thread. There are too many variables in your data that you havent accounted for. It also tells us nothing about what range they died at vs the cane or how well acs apply dps at falloff range while kiting.


How many of those brutix had support to get tackle? People very much avoid ramming into a brutix. They are also just as likely to have multiple support ships. The enviroment is exactly the same. I am misdirecting nothing, you are bitching about med autos, we are talking about a ship that uses med autos. What variables have I not accounted for? What does it matter at what range they died at? they died all the same. It tells use that autos are killing things effectivly.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

You still have not answered the question i brought up a couple posts ago. Dont want to answer something that will bring your market data crashing down?


I have answered every question you have asked of me, I will not be repeating myself just so you can ignore my answers yet again. Ironically, you have not answered a single one of mine or countered any of my evidence. Heres another, if, as you think, autos are poor in firepower and are matched by blasters for range why is it that the Myrmidons second most used turret is the Duel 180mm auto cannon?


I will go into detail later. Away from my computer right now. But scroll to the top this page and you should see my post with the question im still waiting to have answered. Actually READ the entire post, even when i quote myself.

Im not responding to what you claim because its not relavent to OP. OP discusses poor ac application at kite range, not if acs are being used or not. And if stabbers or some other minny ship is being sold. Blasters are brought up because they overlap ac application. Meaning i cant brawl with acs (which you pointed out) and the dps i apply while pulling range or kiting is too low to kill anything but frigs and a few buffer fit cruisers.

Also, your myrm point has been discussed pages back. Read the thread. Im not gonna hold your hand to give you the information that has already been provided.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#395 - 2015-01-02 19:05:01 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


I will go into detail later. Away from my computer right now. But scroll to the top this page and you should see my post with the question im still waiting to have answered. Actually READ the entire post, even when i quote myself.

Im not responding to what you claim because its not relavent to OP. OP discusses poor ac application at kite range, not if acs are being used or not. And if stabbers or some other minny ship is being sold. Blasters are brought up because they overlap ac application. Meaning i cant brawl with acs (which you pointed out) and the dps i apply while pulling range or kiting is too low to kill anything but frigs and a few buffer fit cruisers.

Also, your myrm point has been discussed pages back. Read the thread. Im not gonna hold your hand to give you the information that has already been provided.


So once again you will ignore everything that goes against your point of view. Simple fact here is that auto cannons are not being outclassed by the other weapon systems.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#396 - 2015-01-02 19:28:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


I will go into detail later. Away from my computer right now. But scroll to the top this page and you should see my post with the question im still waiting to have answered. Actually READ the entire post, even when i quote myself.

Im not responding to what you claim because its not relavent to OP. OP discusses poor ac application at kite range, not if acs are being used or not. And if stabbers or some other minny ship is being sold. Blasters are brought up because they overlap ac application. Meaning i cant brawl with acs (which you pointed out) and the dps i apply while pulling range or kiting is too low to kill anything but frigs and a few buffer fit cruisers.

Also, your myrm point has been discussed pages back. Read the thread. Im not gonna hold your hand to give you the information that has already been provided.


So once again you will ignore everything that goes against your point of view. Simple fact here is that auto cannons are not being outclassed by the other weapon systems.


Spin it how u want. Still havent answered my question from the beginning. Im not going to go through each of your points through a phone atm though. Nor will i spend more time trying to discuss a weapon system while you cherry pick your arguements and avoid the ones that dont fit your agenda. All the while being tunnel visioned that acs are fine and ignoring those who solo with them without support.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#397 - 2015-01-02 20:08:55 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Spin it how u want. Still havent answered my question from the beginning. Im not going to go through each of your points through a phone atm though. Nor will i spend more time trying to discuss a weapon system while you cherry pick your arguements and avoid the ones that dont fit your agenda. All the while being tunnel visioned that acs are fine and ignoring those who solo with them without support.


Where is the cherry picking? I went just through each ship class that uses a/c and compared them to everything else in their class. You meanwhile are consistently banging on about brawling with blasters and say everything outside of this narrow example is off topic.

I also wonder why it is you are also telling outright lies. Neutron blasters do not have the same range as 425s, they have roughly the same range as duel 180s in reality. You also ignore the fact that most a/c ships will have a number of advantages from better tracking ammo to capless weaponry and damage selection, the ships that use them are also some of the most adaptable you can find and will easily allow you to fit things like TE, nano, neuts and give the option of armour and shield fits without making the sacrifices the other races have to.

Going back to the rax vs rupture, the rupture can fit its largest close range weapons, a mwd and tank with the full array of tackle, 3x damage mods, a TE and a med neut. The rax cant do this, it must downgrade the guns so it gets half the range of the rupture, it must get into scram range to do its damage and that also means getting into neut range which is not a happy place to be for something with cap hungry weapons. Worse still is if you decide to plate your rax, and most do, and you want to go with 3x damage mods that leaves you with two low slots to play with so chances are that explosive resist hole is going to be wide open. Said fusion rupture is also out damaging the null rax so if your rupture is packing an AB the mwd rax is in real trouble as it cannot dictate range once it enters scram range which it must do because of its blasters. If the rax is AB fit and your rupture is mwd you can just stay at range and pick it off.

So yes, there are ways of dealing with brawling ships at close range.

Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#398 - 2015-01-02 23:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Badman Lasermouse
baltec1 wrote:




Going back to the rax vs rupture, the rupture can fit its largest close range weapons, a mwd and tank with the full array of tackle, 3x damage mods, a TE and a med neut. The rax cant do this, it must downgrade the guns so it gets half the range of the rupture, it must get into scram range to do its damage and that also means getting into neut range which is not a happy place to be for something with cap hungry weapons. Worse still is if you decide to plate your rax, and most do, and you want to go with 3x damage mods that leaves you with two low slots to play with so chances are that explosive resist hole is going to be wide open. Said fusion rupture is also out damaging the null rax so if your rupture is packing an AB the mwd rax is in real trouble as it cannot dictate range once it enters scram range which it must do because of its blasters. If the rax is AB fit and your rupture is mwd you can just stay at range and pick it off.





Lets pretend that these two ships are in the same class for a moment, the Ruptures counterpart is the Vexor, which is the most powerful t1 cruiser in the game.

Here's your Rupture fit, its not bad, I've used it.

[Rupture, Unnamed loadout]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Valkyrie II x1
Warrior II x4


Now here are some stats:

DPS 502 including the drones and Fleet Fusion with a optimal of 1.7k and a falloff of 14k

DPS drops to 418 with Barrage and a falloff of 22.

Does 1693 M/S, 2 minutes of Cap with the MWD on, 1 minute with the Nuet as well.

EHP 26K



Now here's your typical Thorax:

[Thorax, Unnamed loadout]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

Now here are some stats:

DPS 501 including drones with Cal Navy Antimatter optimal 1.5k Falloff of 3.8k

DPS drops to 431 with Null and a falloff of 5.3km.

Does 1666 M/S, and is cap stable with the booster.

EHP 35k


Pretty fair match up on paper, except for the fact that the Rupture has three damage mods and still only beats the Thorax by 1 Dps (with the Rupture using 425's and the Thorax electrons), and less than 30 M/S in speed. Lets not even talk about the tank, or the fact that the Thorax is Nuet resistant, and has a web and scram. Here's a closer fit:

[Thorax, Unnamed loadout]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


I think this Thorax fit mirrors that Rupture a little more closely. Now lets look at the numbers:


Now here are some stats:

DPS 684 including drones with Cal Navy Antimatter optimal 2.5k Falloff of 7.5k

DPS drops to 578 with Null an optimal of 6.9 a falloff of 11km.

Does 2028 M/S, and have 1 minute 30 seconds of cap.

EHP 20 k


This should illustrate my point a bit more clearly. Why should I fly a Rupture at all, a Blaster Thorax is better in almost every way. Even against the Armor Variant, all the Thorax has to do is wait 1 minute for the Rupture to cap itself out, or just sling shot them and catch them with a web, because 30M/s doesn't leave much room for error with a kiting ship.

-Badman
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#399 - 2015-01-03 01:09:44 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:


This should illustrate my point a bit more clearly. Why should I fly a Rupture at all, a Blaster Thorax is better in almost every way. Even against the Armor Variant, all the Thorax has to do is wait 1 minute for the Rupture to cap itself out, or just sling shot them and catch them with a web, because 30M/s doesn't leave much room for error with a kiting ship.


You get 3 minutes in the rupture, the rax will cap out long before the rupture does. Fit an AB on the rupture, replace one LSE for a web, replace disruptor for a scram. Force the rax into a position where it cannot use its firepower while you can use yours and dictate the range. Rupture also has the option of running some Ewar, a tracking disruptor used on a ship with an already small engagement range. Armour rupture is great for this job.

There are plenty of options out there for dealing with blaster boats for auto ships.

The problem with the vexor has more to do with the sentries than the ship itself.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#400 - 2015-01-03 01:20:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:


This should illustrate my point a bit more clearly. Why should I fly a Rupture at all, a Blaster Thorax is better in almost every way. Even against the Armor Variant, all the Thorax has to do is wait 1 minute for the Rupture to cap itself out, or just sling shot them and catch them with a web, because 30M/s doesn't leave much room for error with a kiting ship.


You get 3 minutes in the rupture, the rax will cap out long before the rupture does. Fit an AB on the rupture, replace one LSE for a web, replace disruptor for a scram. Force the rax into a position where it cannot use its firepower while you can use yours and dictate the range. Rupture also has the option of running some Ewar, a tracking disruptor used on a ship with an already small engagement range. Armour rupture is great for this job.

There are plenty of options out there for dealing with blaster boats for auto ships.

The problem with the vexor has more to do with the sentries than the ship itself.



Now I know you have no idea what you are talking about.

-Badman