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About patriotism and hope : on the notoriety of Diana Kim
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Wendrika Hydreiga
#41 - 2014-12-27 22:16:56 UTC
Miyamoto Takedi wrote:
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Leave Miss Kim alone!


Obvious sock puppet is obvious.
That is all.


If I were Miss Kim, you would bet your socks I would be droping the hammer on those dastardly Gallente! But I'm not, so I do science stuff instead!

In fact, you're the sock puppet! Silly sock puppet, being all puppet like and calling other people sock puppets!
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#42 - 2014-12-27 22:24:31 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And then he orbitally bombarded civilians. Let ME remind you that evil done in the name of good is NOT good and that good done in the service of evil is still evil.


You are terribly black and white about your opinions on black and white, dear.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2014-12-27 23:07:13 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And then he orbitally bombarded civilians. Let ME remind you that evil done in the name of good is NOT good and that good done in the service of evil is still evil.


You are terribly black and white about your opinions on black and white, dear.


At least I don't have to wander further than the rec room to have a conversation with you about it now.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-12-28 14:58:39 UTC
Quattras Peione wrote:
The idea that "freedom" means a total lack of restraint is not an uncommon misconception within the State

Yes it is. It's incredibly uncommon, to the point of the person in question being the only Caldari capsuleer who has ever espoused it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-12-29 01:41:41 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Quattras Peione wrote:
The idea that "freedom" means a total lack of restraint is not an uncommon misconception within the State

Yes it is. It's incredibly uncommon, to the point of the person in question being the only Caldari capsuleer who has ever espoused it.


Because otherwise how could she continue to convince herself that the Gallenteans aren't humans?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-12-29 06:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Quattras Peione
Just because a society is free in its own way does not mean that its concept of said freedom will match another's. We have always accepted personal freedom as a given, and not a cause to be rallied behind. If you haven't noticed, we are a very practical people. As such, the idea of "freedom" as a goal was somewhat alien to us. Keep in mind that this dates from when our two cultures first interacted, and my own was still emerging from the dark ages.

Commander Kim shows here what we in the academic community would call "confirmation bias." She has sources for her ideas, but they are all conveniently chosen to go along with her very narrow world-view. Pretty much anything that made the Heth regime's "approved reading material" list.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-12-29 09:57:07 UTC
Quattras Peione wrote:
Just because a society is free in its own way does not mean that its concept of said freedom will match another's. We have always accepted personal freedom as a given, and not a cause to be rallied behind. If you haven't noticed, we are a very practical people. As such, the idea of "freedom" as a goal was somewhat alien to us. Keep in mind that this dates from when our two cultures first interacted, and my own was still emerging from the dark ages.

Commander Kim shows here what we in the academic community would call "confirmation bias." She has sources for her ideas, but they are all conveniently chosen to go along with her very narrow world-view. Pretty much anything that made the Heth regime's "approved reading material" list.


Yep. Exactly that. She really isn't that different from a kooky cultist or a single-star universe adherent. I sure hope she doesn't become anything like the latter. Single-Starrers are insane!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#48 - 2014-12-29 12:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Haria Haritimado
Thank you all, for your replies. I'm surprised, that this topic is still frequented after some not so favourable replies in the beginning. I start to realize, though, that the discussion circles around only two aspects of the initial title. Patriotism (freedom) and Strike Commander Diana Kim. Maybe the notoriety is not about DIana Kim but her constant reappearance as a subject of discussions. I would like to underline the third aspect which is not so prominent in the discussion until now: hope.

As one of the first answerer said: Leave Diana Kim alone. I'm inclined to read this as the invitation to look ahead, past Diana Kim, and at each other. If the Strike Commander is right and she's foretelling the future correctly, war between Gallante and Caldari will be inevitable. And inevitable will be the need to prepare for war, technically and emotionally. I would like to ask you: what is our responsibility as capsuleers in regard to this prospect? Read 'hope' as a puny attempt to encourage dialogue.

Cross the borders between rival nations or factions as long as it is still possible for you. Stop by, have a look at the details of everyday life of the perceived 'adversaries'. How are their citizens and our citizens are actually living on planets, colonies, and stations? Where are differences, where are similarities? Maybe you even consider pairing up with someone who just objected your own ideas in this very discussion. Maybe go ahead and invite him or her personally. We are a small and benefited community and personal relationships are the best and strongest ties in order to shape future conflicts in mutual interest and understanding. It is my belief that we capsuleers may have an impact on future conflicts. But even more impact on how we solve it with reason and awareness.

H. Haritimado

Corporate ID
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-12-29 12:22:46 UTC
Haria Haritimado wrote:
If the Strike Commander is right and she's foretelling the future correctly,

... it would certainly be a first.

I'm sorry, Haritimado, but anyone who says this sentence for any reason other than comedy has absolutely no credibility whatsoever.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-12-29 15:10:59 UTC
Haria Haritimado wrote:
Thank you all, for your replies. I'm surprised, that this topic is still frequented after some not so favourable replies in the beginning. I start to realize, though, that the discussion circles around only two aspects of the initial title. Patriotism (freedom) and Strike Commander Diana Kim. Maybe the notoriety is not about DIana Kim but her constant reappearance as a subject of discussions. I would like to underline the third aspect which is not so prominent in the discussion until now: hope.

As one of the first answerer said: Leave Diana Kim alone. I'm inclined to read this as the invitation to look ahead, past Diana Kim, and at each other. If the Strike Commander is right and she's foretelling the future correctly, war between Gallante and Caldari will be inevitable. And inevitable will be the need to prepare for war, technically and emotionally. I would like to ask you: what is our responsibility as capsuleers in regard to this prospect? Read 'hope' as a puny attempt to encourage dialogue.

Cross the borders between rival nations or factions as long as it is still possible for you. Stop by, have a look at the details of everyday life of the perceived 'adversaries'. How are their citizens and our citizens are actually living on planets, colonies, and stations? Where are differences, where are similarities? Maybe you even consider pairing up with someone who just objected your own ideas in this very discussion. Maybe go ahead and invite him or her personally. We are a small and benefited community and personal relationships are the best and strongest ties in order to shape future conflicts in mutual interest and understanding. It is my belief that we capsuleers may have an impact on future conflicts. But even more impact on how we solve it with reason and awareness.

H. Haritimado


You should, perhaps, forward this message to Diana Kim.

Also, unless you had been living under a rock, the State and the Feds had just left war and are trying to make nice with each other. Both sides are currently war-weary, and the State especially is sick of Heth and the Provist. It's only Kim who seem to insist that the war must continue.

And yes, those who had dealt with Kim personally are also sick of having to hear her going on and on and on about how the Gallenteans are subhumans worthy of genocide and that she just keeps. Hijacking. Discussions. You should perhaps sit down opposite of her and listen to her talk for about 30 minutes. If she doesn't start rabble-rousing, sneak in the word 'Gallente' or 'Freedom' and then hit the bottle.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-01-01 21:46:41 UTC
Haria Haritimado wrote:

As one of the first answerer said: Leave Diana Kim alone. I'm inclined to read this as the invitation to look ahead, past Diana Kim, and at each other. If the Strike Commander is right and she's foretelling the future correctly, war between Gallante and Caldari will be inevitable. And inevitable will be the need to prepare for war, technically and emotionally. I would like to ask you: what is our responsibility as capsuleers in regard to this prospect? Read 'hope' as a puny attempt to encourage dialogue.


I fail to see any inevitability as regards foreign policy of the Caldari State when its domestic politics in recent history has no real basis in any form of certainty. The Caldari State in the past almost decade has the dubious distinction of being the only society in which large segments of its population have officially been traitors, then patriots, and sometimes to again be traitors only to be patriots. For example, someone like Diana Kim could be said to be a patriot, but only in the period in which Tibus Heth was also a patriot and State Executor from YC 110 until Tibus Heth was a traitor in YC 115 at Haatamo. Of course, Tibus Heth was himself a traitor before he was a patriot and State Executor due to his having lead the revolt at Piak. Much like the rioters at Kassigainen and the Brothers of Freedom were traitors for doing much the same until under the CPD they were patriots and the vanguards of the New Meritocracy -- and today are again traitors.

Even Mens Reppola and Ishukone as a whole were implied to be traitors to the State due to their lack of support of the CPD until they are now patriots for negotiating with the Federal Senate over Arcurio and Caldari Prime -- no wait, they might still be traitors due to that, or perhaps they are patriots... who knows, the whole Patriot-Traitor political superpositions in the Caldari State probably needs better explanation with Quantum Mechanics and as such I think only a fool would talk of any sort of certainty or inevitability due to it.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-01-02 01:35:21 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Haria Haritimado wrote:

As one of the first answerer said: Leave Diana Kim alone. I'm inclined to read this as the invitation to look ahead, past Diana Kim, and at each other. If the Strike Commander is right and she's foretelling the future correctly, war between Gallante and Caldari will be inevitable. And inevitable will be the need to prepare for war, technically and emotionally. I would like to ask you: what is our responsibility as capsuleers in regard to this prospect? Read 'hope' as a puny attempt to encourage dialogue.


I fail to see any inevitability as regards foreign policy of the Caldari State when its domestic politics in recent history has no real basis in any form of certainty. The Caldari State in the past almost decade has the dubious distinction of being the only society in which large segments of its population have officially been traitors, then patriots, and sometimes to again be traitors only to be patriots. For example, someone like Diana Kim could be said to be a patriot, but only in the period in which Tibus Heth was also a patriot and State Executor from YC 110 until Tibus Heth was a traitor in YC 115 at Haatamo. Of course, Tibus Heth was himself a traitor before he was a patriot and State Executor due to his having lead the revolt at Piak. Much like the rioters at Kassigainen and the Brothers of Freedom were traitors for doing much the same until under the CPD they were patriots and the vanguards of the New Meritocracy -- and today are again traitors.

Even Mens Reppola and Ishukone as a whole were implied to be traitors to the State due to their lack of support of the CPD until they are now patriots for negotiating with the Federal Senate over Arcurio and Caldari Prime -- no wait, they might still be traitors due to that, or perhaps they are patriots... who knows, the whole Patriot-Traitor political superpositions in the Caldari State probably needs better explanation with Quantum Mechanics and as such I think only a fool would talk of any sort of certainty or inevitability due to it.


I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-01-02 05:44:16 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.


The history of the Caldari people is replete with the examples of the injustices and persecutions faced by the innocent due to corrupt officials. And just as with the Raata Empire and the Cathura rebellions so with the Caldari State and its labour revolts culminating in the CPD. That widespread civil unrest, rebellion, and revolt are always the natural consequences of political disenfranchisement, repression, and draconian laws created by corrupt officials lacking in any form of accountability to be enforced through punitive violence is often glossed over by the intellectuals in Megacorporate media-propaganda divisions such as Lai Dai Press or Echelon Entertainment in favour of the rose-tinted romantic versions of the Caldari past that justify the status quo of corporate power in the State.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2015-01-02 06:16:04 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.


As a member of the FDU, you'll certainly understand what it's like to live in a world governed by the news cycle. But nothing about life in the State, I assure you. So, if you have specific questions, just ask them and be assured that, otherwise, the least you say the smartest you look.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-01-02 06:20:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.


As a member of the FDU, you'll certainly understand what it's like to live in a world governed by the news cycle. But nothing about life in the State, I assure you. So, if you have specific questions, just ask them and be assured that, otherwise, the least you say the smartest you look.


I actually turn off the news for most parts and only tune in for a digest once a week. Most of the news in Gallente Federation is rubbish. Way too much sensationalisation and matters of no consequence.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-01-02 11:12:15 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
I'm betting 20isk Kim's response is going to be longer than what is directly written about her....

*grabs popcorn, throws a kernel in the air, misses mouth*


Indeed you are. But Pieter also shows up as an advocate of the cause... as he generally do

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2015-01-02 14:57:20 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.


As a member of the FDU, you'll certainly understand what it's like to live in a world governed by the news cycle. But nothing about life in the State, I assure you. So, if you have specific questions, just ask them and be assured that, otherwise, the least you say the smartest you look.


I actually turn off the news for most parts and only tune in for a digest once a week. Most of the news in Gallente Federation is rubbish. Way too much sensationalisation and matters of no consequence.


Just to add though. I can't ask specific questions about the State because I do not know what to ask at all. I do not really know anything about the State beyond the surface info regarding corporate meritocracies and such; things anyone who has heard of the State would also know.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-01-03 04:45:43 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I guess stuff like that can happen when every aspect of life is governed by the upper echelons of corporate society. Including the media.


As a member of the FDU, you'll certainly understand what it's like to live in a world governed by the news cycle. But nothing about life in the State, I assure you. So, if you have specific questions, just ask them and be assured that, otherwise, the least you say the smartest you look.


I actually turn off the news for most parts and only tune in for a digest once a week. Most of the news in Gallente Federation is rubbish. Way too much sensationalisation and matters of no consequence.


Just to add though. I can't ask specific questions about the State because I do not know what to ask at all. I do not really know anything about the State beyond the surface info regarding corporate meritocracies and such; things anyone who has heard of the State would also know.


It's all in the details, of course. The big picture is usually an illusion.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-01-08 14:37:57 UTC
I would like to clarify what seems to be a misconception held by the media and public:

Commander Kim is by no means a pariah among the members of the State Protectorate. While the views expressed in her private life do not necessarily represent the official position of the State Protectorate, she does enjoy a lot of support from individuals within its ranks.

I accept that her views may no longer be compatible with those of wider Caldari society, but the men and women enlisted in the State Protectorate are largely patriotic in their political leanings, for obvious reasons, and have little love for the Gallente or their way of life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2015-01-08 19:48:02 UTC
Nalena Linova wrote:
I would like to clarify what seems to be a misconception held by the media and public:

Commander Kim is by no means a pariah among the members of the State Protectorate. While the views expressed in her private life do not necessarily represent the official position of the State Protectorate, she does enjoy a lot of support from individuals within its ranks.

I accept that her views may no longer be compatible with those of wider Caldari society, but the men and women enlisted in the State Protectorate are largely patriotic in their political leanings, for obvious reasons, and have little love for the Gallente or their way of life.


As a State Citizen in the Patriot Bloc, I've always admired Citizen Kim's record of devoted service, but I'm also keen that my politics not be confused with Provist politics.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.