Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Glances over at Arty Loki and Sleipnir and grins!

Medium Arty Is Fine, small arty however needs a bit of a pg reduction

I'm giving this a bump. The recent Svipul topic has brough back the issues of fitting artillery.

Even after the changes they're getting in Tiamat, small artillery could really use a PG reduction. Medium ones could also use it, although they're not as in bad need of it like small ones. Large and Extra-Large are in a fairly good point in comparison, but at least Large ones could also use a slight reduction.

The exact numbers I'll leave them to the previous posts in this topic. The reductions don't have to be big; even a 10% redcuction would help a lot.. Maybe a combination of PG reduction to artilleries and PG increase for Minmatar ships could work.

The reason behing this is that there really isn't a good reason for Minmatar not being able to properly use their prefered long range weapon without having to invest in fitting mods and/or rigs, even with high level skills such as AWU 5. Other races don't have issues that big. Also, it isn't like artilleries are overpowered killing machines: they're just high-alpha turrets with moderate range (compared to other long range turrets or missiles) with terrible rate of fire and tracking. Their DPS is very low; they deal their damage in large, spred-out packages. Of course active tanks have trouble against alpha, but that's part of the balance. The best defenses against artilleries are buffer/resists tanks, high transversal speed (getting close), and being outside their effective range.

Thread re-opened at the polite request of the OP.

So I have noticed a disparity with arty again.

A 280 svipul does 9-10dps less than a muninn with 650s when using titanium sabot. Muninn and svipul have 1 gyro each, and svipul has a burst aerator rig. The funny thing is, the alpha of svipul 280s is really close to that of 650s (maybe even marginally better). The ONLY thing the muninn has going for it, is range in comparison.

I think with recent small arty buff, its pushed 650s into irrelavence even more.

Looking at some fleet fits of the muninn... people are using a shield tank... 2 mid tank in a fleet! Does this not strike you as odd? Infact, im fairly certain an arty broadsword would be better in fleets. Since you can get a respectable shield tank and it has same damage bonuses as muninn. Plus it gets a range bonus. EHP on broadsword is close to 100k with 720s. Show me a fleet muninn that can do that. With some implants and meta mods for cpu, you can even squeeze in a bubble.

[Broadsword, 720 shield fleet - 91k EHP]
Reactor Control Unit II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

[Muninn, 720 armor - 53k EHP]
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


The muninn and medium arty needs a rebalance. 5-10% reduction in PG requirements for arty would be a good start. For those who claim "alpha" as the trade off for high PG requirements. No, the trade off for high alpha is abyssmal RoF. If you miss with arty, you wait 6-9s till you shoot again. Meaning smaller ships can get under your guns quite easily in that time frame.

Or, give arty a 3rd turret option like rails and lasers (quad beams/dual 150mm rails) so you can fit a tank, but still take advantage of the hulls bonuses.

I was able to compare 280's to 650's, and found out that 650's barelybeat 280's alpha. Adding 720's for comparison's sake.

Unbonused 720mm = 28 dps w/ 363 alpha
Unbonused 650mm = 25dps w/ 210 alpha
Unbonused 280mm = 21dps w/ 160 alpha

Now, when fit to a ship with bonuses, it gets a little sad. My kite svipul with only 1 gyro and a burst aerator rig (remember, only affects RoF) gets 1826 alpha. Muninn with 1 gyro and 650's gets 1663 alpha. For an actual dps figure, the Muninn does 300dps with short range faction ammo(18+22km). The Svipul does 290dps with short range ammo (13+22km range, fit uses 2 TE). Are 650's supposed to be "dual 280's" or something, but never got the name changed? There is not much of a difference there between frig/cruiser sized weapons.

The muninn beats arty wolf/jag, but only by about 400-600alpha. These are medium artillery cannons, that use large amounts of PG, and have poor tracking. You'd think i'd get something useful from them, instead you barely do more alpha than an arty fit destroyer/frigate. What exactly am i paying for when i spend 160m+ for a muninn? Why bother fitting 650's? If you claim its because they track better, why not just buy a svipul then? Its cheaper, does the same dps, slightly less range, and has better tracking and mobility.

If you say that its 720's or go home, well i'd agree. That comes with its own issues though. Fitting 720's to a muninn means you have 2 options. Go with a 2 slot shield tank for a fleet fit (or one slot shield tank for niche solo fit), or use dual MACR's to make 720's and a plate fit, but do pretty terrible dps and are slow as hell.

So, we're left with a fitting conundrum for artillery and the Muninn. Fit 650's to be outperformed by a svipul when you're flying a T2 ship specialized in medium artillery. Or fit 720's and don't even perform the role the ship is specialized for because its slot layout and Artillery fitting requirements are abyssmal. Quite literally, a broadsword is a better fleet arty ship than a muninn. And its a freakin HIC.

Now, this is a common trend in minmatar hulls when trying to fit artillery. 650's are pretty much wasted weapon slots, and you still can barely fit a reasonable tank. 720's are what artillery should be, but can't fit to anything without extensive fitting mods and really gimping the fit.

Minmatar need options with their weapon line, especially since CCP seems to be ignoring a problem with medium a/c damage/application at range. So, if we can't rely on medium a/c's to project any decent dps, can we at least get artillery in a reasonable spot so minny ships can actually apply some damage at range and not be pigeon holed into no tank sniper fits?

I still agree with you - artillery needs slightly less fitting requirements. Especially in the medium and capital sizes.