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Fix the Hulk(ageddon)
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-12-30 15:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
its true you had only the hulk for ore but you could chose your playstyle while doing so TankHulk / CargoHulk / YieldHulk

You can still fit the ship. The big change now is that there is an even wider gap between tank Skiff and yield Hulk than there ever was previously between tank Hulk and yield Hulk.

It'd be nice, though, if cargo expanders could increase the ore hold size.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#22 - 2014-12-30 15:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Elarik
the thing is the fitting dosnt matter much you will never get a Hulk with enough tank that you would not chose the skiff
if you want tank and you would never get a skiff with the yield of a hulk and vice versa

the gap is wider dosnt mean its better an example before the ganker had to scan the ship before he attempts the gank
he could not see if the hulk is tank fittet or for yield or cargo know he knows Procurer and skiff is off limits alone and covetor and hulk retriever are easy targets the fit does nott matter most of the time because they cant fit enough tank to survive
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2014-12-30 15:49:10 UTC
Yeah I consider the hulk OK as is, I mine quite effectively with it even if I just mine into cans and change to hauler and go pick it up when the field is cleared. I'm also less of a target to ganks, since I'm obviously not AFK mining when I'm updating jetcans to new cans and so on. But the hulk needs to be able to jettison sooner than 2 minutes between each can. And maybe a timer on how long hulk cans last?
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
xX SERENITY Xx
#24 - 2014-12-30 17:17:42 UTC
skiff no need any nerfing , its good lvl3 mission boat the yield can be reducd but the tank, damage from drones - increased by 5%
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-12-30 17:30:11 UTC
I think I understand where the OP is coming from.


I don't think it's a matter of what the ships are capable of, but more a matter on, since they're all pretty well balanced, why does the Hulk still require substantially more time and costs to produce?

If they all have even trade-offs, why do they not cost the same general amount of time and isk to produce?

There's always going to be a bit a variables when it comes to production costs, but they should be more evenly balanced.

Perhaps the Hulk should mine everything better, and cost slightly more to produce, and maybe even slightly longer to produce.
But the key word there is slightly....

If you did this, then the profit margin would be determined by supply and demand instead of manufacturing costs and time.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-12-30 23:46:32 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
covetor and hulk retriever are easy targets the fit does nott matter most of the time because they cant fit enough tank to survive

Even a Covetor can easily fit enough tank to shrug off a T2 Catalyst in 0.5 sec space. Just being able to survive a single catalyst very significantly reduces your chance of being ganked. But Covetors and Hulks also are made to be flying in mining fleets. In a fleet you share intel with each other, and you pay attention, and when someone sees someone else being suspicious, perhaps looking for a gank, they let everyone know and you guys get safe. That reduces ganks even better than the tank. Both together will cut your ganks by over 90%. And then you can still enjoy that yield bonus.


I'd fly a Covetor any day, but I would certainly fit tank. I might not fit a Procurer for tank but I probably would. Tank modules just make a bigger difference than yield modules.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#27 - 2014-12-31 00:41:37 UTC
Seems like a barge full of rocks would be able to absorb tonnes of abuse.

Wardec immunity of industrial ships in newbcorps is a big, big obstacle to all kinds of logical content though.
Extreme
Eye of God
#28 - 2014-12-31 03:03:04 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I think I understand where the OP is coming from.


I don't think it's a matter of what the ships are capable of, but more a matter on, since they're all pretty well balanced, why does the Hulk still require substantially more time and costs to produce?

If they all have even trade-offs, why do they not cost the same general amount of time and isk to produce?

There's always going to be a bit a variables when it comes to production costs, but they should be more evenly balanced.

Perhaps the Hulk should mine everything better, and cost slightly more to produce, and maybe even slightly longer to produce.
But the key word there is slightly....

If you did this, then the profit margin would be determined by supply and demand instead of manufacturing costs and time.


That's right Joe
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-12-31 03:09:59 UTC
I thought they have about the same costs to produce, and the lower price tag on the procurers was due to having a lot already built. But if they do indeed cost a lot less to produce, I think that should change. I don't see a problem with them costing a bit less, but overall I think the cost should be about the same.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Extreme
Eye of God
#30 - 2014-12-31 14:31:42 UTC
I just checked the bpo's of skif/mack/hulk and they do have the same production times now.

BUT


Using the industry information it will cost 239.5M isk in materials to produce 1 hulk (BPO original with no research)
and can sell it at 216M isk on market.
(exclusive 6.6M production costs and exclusive 1.5M sales tax per ship)

Mack bpo with no research, at the Industry tool, it costs 203M to produce a mack and it sells at 200M on market


Skiff, BPO with no research, 165M to build and selling 165M on market

Conclusion:
Hulk 23.5M loss per produced ship
Mack 3M loss per produced ship
Skiff breaks even

As i used bpo non researched and same market materials (Jita), market fluctuations have no role nor influence on this basic outcome.

Question is why the Industry tool generates at best a break even on the Skiff and a 10% loss (excluding production costs and sales tax of 8M isk). The loss on a produced Hulk is 23.5M plus 8M production costs and tax, 31.5M per ship!

There is also a huge overstock on market so i can conclude Exhumers have become way to strong and/or the penalties in Empire ganking Exhumers have become too strong?
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#31 - 2014-12-31 16:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Elarik
or some guys dont bother with flying exumers in empire out of fear to lose a ship agains a ganking squad
the result low demand
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-12-31 22:46:54 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
in my eyes there is no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better
This would be relevant in an appreciable manner if the old barges/exhumers only had a resource preference. The current set of ships allows for the extremes of tank yield or hold to be applied to gathering any resource equally. The old barges did not.
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#33 - 2015-01-01 04:19:44 UTC
as i statet above i see no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better

in my eyes its more logical to use a specialized ship for the job and fit it for your play style
the only thing that needet change would be the tanking ability
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-01-01 04:53:19 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
as i statet above i see no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better

in my eyes its more logical to use a specialized ship for the job and fit it for your play style
the only thing that needet change would be the tanking ability
Actually the hold and tanking would need to change as the hulk was able to significantly exceed both of the other exhumers in that capacity. If it didn't and you cared about either of those the hulk was still the right choice for just about anything as it's yield was less but still competent compared to the other alternatives.

You could add the same fitting capacities to the others, but at that point you have an ice hulk, a ore hulk and a merc hulk, which is less interesting than either the old or new barges.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-01-01 04:55:34 UTC
So you're saying that CCP gave us too much control over our mining experience, and that they should go back to the way it used to be, when the resource you were mining determined the cost and hit points of your ship, and one of the barges was completely useless, even for newbs?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
PJRiddick
CherryHill
#36 - 2015-03-24 13:01:32 UTC
Dear CCP,
it has been a while since ive writen to you in forums but im going to give it one last try to get you all to see where you have gone wrong and the errors of your ways.
Myself i am a hulk pilot,...I spent a lot of time getting there, going thru al the smaller ships and finally getting to the point that the hulk was the pentacle of my existence, and now, you want to take that away.
THE SKIFF,....SERIOUSLY?,...have you guys been sniffing the burned shellac off the components of your computers again?
Heres my take on things,...If you want to make the hulk with its cargo nurfed, im ok with that, I orca mine anyway, The MAC, well its has its place but with al the nurfs you all have done to it, you might as well go set it out in the belt and feed it to the rats.
The SKIFF,....for some reason i just cant wrap my head around this,.....
Just buff the tank on the HULK,...and ill be fine with the fact that the skiff mines just as much but this CRAP that the skiff has a better tank,...
THIS CRAP IS WHY I LEFT EVE THE FIRST TIME,....

CCP,....my one and only suggestion to you all,...

~-=+>UNINSTALL<+=-~
OH and fix the hulk before you go

I honestly think CCP has done an excellent job with the game but this is a bit over the top. just rebalance the miners,...
IMO the HULK should have the best tank, medium cargo and ore hold.
the MAC, a bit bigger hold and about as much tank as the hulk, These two ships are the penticle of mining IMO
The skiff,...I wont say nurf the tank but a tank that is BS sized?,...yea that is BS. and with the fact that it does as much as a hulk in ore,....>shakes head<
you all have some real work ahead of you,.....
=-=-=-=-=-=-
remember,...stay in school, get education, stay off drugs, and fix my hulk.
~-=+>xXx<+=-~
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#37 - 2015-03-24 13:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Agondray
Gawain Edmond wrote:
the hulk is still the best mining ship, pulls in more ore than the others, the other ships have things that are better than the hulk like tank and cargohold but the hulk still mines more than the others.

Want to mine lots use a hulk.
Want to mine afk while watching tv use a different one.
Want to not get suicide ganked use the other one.

Only one of those three is best at mining the others are better at not mining.


ive seen the numbers and the hulk only outmines a mack but just over 100m3. even the skiff has a larger hold.

also while hulkageddon started killing hulks, the following years saw anything of industry could be killed for points....you just don't see miners killing ore thieves and small fleets with the hulk anymore.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-03-24 20:21:09 UTC
PJRiddick wrote:
hulk was the pentacle of my existence

I agreed with you that the Hulk should be big and beefy, and the Skiff should, rather than being tough, be slippery and fast. When CCP tiericided barges, they approached them with the idea that all barges are medium ships, and that's part of the problem--in yours and my eyes anyway.

One advantage, however, is that the Hulk doesn't cost much more than a Skiff. If the Skiff were destroyer sized and the Hulk battleship-sized, you'd be looking at a 75 mil Skiff and a bil+ hulk.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#39 - 2015-03-24 21:18:47 UTC
Extreme wrote:
When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship.


This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP.


The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack.
You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month.
Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk.


So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build.
8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per day 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here!

Stop building Hulks then that just sounds like supply is WAY higher than demand

Blobbing Explained
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#40 - 2015-03-24 21:25:26 UTC
The only change I would like to see is for all the ore holds to be modified so as to carry ice without having empty space left over. Adjust them up, down, sideways or whatever, just so that there isn't an extra 1k m3 or 500 m3 or even 1 m3.