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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Remove killmail APIs

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2014-12-31 07:26:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
As anyone can see, I give no fucks about my KB record. The problem isn't the KB, the problem is people who think they matter enough to kick people who don't fly whatever the current FOTM is. Organisations that do this tend to fold when the meta changes.



every thing you all say is just lies and trolls GRR goons

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#22 - 2014-12-31 08:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Elarik
i did witness hours of flaming because someone did fly a fun fit (realy expansive) and got killed
dosnt matter what corp in each and every one of them the kb is god

i could have bad luck or this ******* api should get trashed
Falken Falcon
#23 - 2014-12-31 10:27:18 UTC
I support this idea fully.

The disregard of fun and constant watching of the alliance/corp killboards is what is wrong with most of the corps/alliances in eve (At least on my experiance).

If the api would get removed, people could actually start flying the stuff they want without the fear of getting kicked.

Aye, Sea Turtles
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#24 - 2014-12-31 10:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
Come on...

Do you really think that ppl dont want to undock because of lose mails ?

Nah they just don't want to lose their ships that's all.

Then yes, if someone have fun to lose shiny boats everyday, i would understand that some people dont agree with that and that's normal, KBs are showcase for corporations, Waffle is a school so it's even more important.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2014-12-31 10:36:42 UTC
Falken Falcon wrote:
I support this idea fully.

The disregard of fun and constant watching of the alliance/corp killboards is what is wrong with most of the corps/alliances in eve (At least on my experiance).

If the api would get removed, people could actually start flying the stuff they want without the fear of getting kicked.


getting kicked and then having a hard time finding a new corp because your KB is to far in the "red"

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-12-31 10:50:33 UTC
The thing is, we the players give corps this power. Which is a shame. So many corps care more about a "green" killboard than having fun.

Now granted, I can see that to a point in high sec to put off war decs, but everywhere else......fun >>>> green KB - so long as you're funding your own losses, who cares?
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#27 - 2014-12-31 10:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
afkalt wrote:
The thing is, we the players give corps this power. Which is a shame. So many corps care more about a "green" killboard than having fun.

Now granted, I can see that to a point in high sec to put off war decs, but everywhere else......fun >>>> green KB - so long as you're funding your own losses, who cares?



Haaa

Not so many corps, just take a look at the power blocks kbs you'll see a tons of expensive pve loss... Do ppl get kicked ?

No

They even allow loss with **** fits so ..
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-12-31 11:04:34 UTC
-1

This does not get any better with each iteration it is suggested. Public killboards are the one and only unforgeable diary of what is happening and matters in EvE (a game about ship explosions!) and the only way for an individual player or group to have a kind of history/track record (You know kill mails are only sent to the player with the final blow and the victim?). Imo killboards are the actual heart of EvE and one if not the crucial success factor.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Anni Bonney
D-sync
D-sync.
#29 - 2014-12-31 11:06:03 UTC
Something need to be done about public killmails.

Maybe having a delay of a day or a week.
Maybe having each player the option to make kills private.
Something needs to be done.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#30 - 2014-12-31 11:15:31 UTC
Anni Bonney wrote:
Something need to be done about public killmails.

Maybe having a delay of a day or a week.
Maybe having each player the option to make kills private.
Something needs to be done.



What's the point about having delay ?

What do you expect to change with this delay ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2014-12-31 11:17:30 UTC
Anni Bonney wrote:
Something need to be done about public killmails.

Maybe having a delay of a day or a week.
Maybe having each player the option to make kills private.
Something needs to be done.


Why?

The people that ***** about killmails will only ***** about something else, removing them doesn't improve anything and its removal hits some rather important things such as intel, figuring out who won a fight and letting people know that something did infact die. I remember what it was like before KB were around, a group would dunk a fleet only to have the victims say it never happened and always ended up with big he said she said shiptoasting.

Any corp/alliance that boots people based upon a loss mail isn't a good place to be anyway.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-12-31 11:51:36 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
TL;DR Having nearly every kill and loss perfectly catalogued in a publicly accessible database, while certainly a cool idea on paper, has had a subtle-yet-devastating effect on EVE's gameplay. Remove killmail APIs.

To be clear, I am proposing the removal of the killmail API, not killmails.

The gamification of gaming is one of the worst things that has happened to gaming in the last decade or so. Things were very different when I started playing EVE in 2003. One game I played alongside EVE was the original Call of Duty (long before it had become a yearly franchise). At the time, there was no mainstream persistence of stats beyond any given round. There were, of course, some exceptions to this, but nothing like today's Battlelog or eve-kill/zKillboard.

Players could choose whether they wanted to make a round a "personal best" or "knives only". In my opinion, the most interesting game content has always come from the metaphorical "knives only" round. Thanks to persistent stats, much of this gameplay has been replaced by stat padding (gameplay that prioritizes KDR over any and all other considerations).

Many kills in eve are hard-earned, and it's important both individually and as a group to have a record of these kills. We have in-game features for this. Having nearly every kill and loss perfectly catalogued in a publicly accessible database, while certainly a cool idea on paper, has had a subtle-yet-devastating effect on EVE's gameplay.

Removing killboard APIs will give players the freedom to generate content without having to worry about said content needlessly going on a permanent record that can then be held against them in the future. It's fairly well agreed upon that players are too risk averse in EVE, and killboard APIs are a big, if not biggest reason why this is the case.

* * * Story time with Carm - optional reading * * *

A few months ago I was in Waffles. For the most part, this is a really great group to fly with in EVE, and I would recommend them to anyone looking for good fights provided you can stomach the PL culture, which is not for everyone. When I wasn't logged on as Carm, I was logged into my incursion fleet (RIP btw) running Vanguard sites. Even after giving ISK away to many of my friends, there was still a surplus left over. I used this surplus to build hilariously expensive PvP boats.

My favorite of all of these was the aptly-named Purgemobile. (See, no killboard required!) I say aptly-named because I was kicked from the corp after dying in a fire with my waffles at my side. (And making 40 newbies of the brave variety very happy that day!) I liked my waffles, and I'm pretty sure most of them liked me back. So why did I get the boot? Because of the culture that exists as a side effect of sites like zKillboard. Without killboard APIs, players would feel more free to cut loose and ultimately generate more content for everyone, and corps wouldn't feel the need to cull players that don't emphasize killboard efficiency.


You use " subtle-yet-devastating effect on EVE's gameplay" twice without explaining in plain text what the effect actually is. How is having a searchable history of kills and losses something which has a devastating effect? Are you advocating for less public intel? Or is this because you don't like individuals pointing out "I R BLOBBER, 99% EFFICIENCY!"?

If former, that's something you can expand on. If latter, you are clearly not capable of handling them in the correct way of either shooting them or trolling them to death.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#33 - 2014-12-31 12:17:55 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I will agree with you because I hate the massive amount of historical intelligence you can gain on someone just by checking the killboards. Just by looking at a person's killboards, you can often isolate what time zone they play in, who they fly with, what ships they like to fly, and whether they are any good or not.

Eve needs to have fewer tools to tell you what is going on everywhere - I'd also get rid of most of the statistics published on the in-game map and through DOTLAN. Make Eve big again.


And while you're at it modify how watchlisting works so that the watchlistee must accept a tickbox to allow you to receive notifications they're online. Futhermore remove watchlisting functionality completely from wormholes as principally if local doesn't work then there is surely no central system to track you for watchlisting to work either.


You'd then have to go the next step and have clones not work. You're just dead - roll a new newb and start over.

It's kind of like the aregument that pot should be legal.... because alcohol is. It's a stupid argument. I'm not saying pot should be legal or illegal - i'm saying the 'because alcohol is legal' aregument is stupid. It's not even close to logical.

So.... Realism in a space game.... Warping shouldn't work, because it's impossible. Clones... nope. Cloaking.... not realistic. Warping cloaked.... pheww - that's just plain crazy.

My point - it's space fantasy game where we all role play being space men in space. You need to be careful on what you choose to throw a logic flag on. I prefer 'Is it fun?' as the acid test, not 'Is this realistic?'

TL/DR If you can space warp your ship across the galaxy or be cloned to life on death, then the watch list is probably realistic too.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#34 - 2014-12-31 12:24:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
As anyone can see, I give no fucks about my KB record. The problem isn't the KB, the problem is people who think they matter enough to kick people who don't fly whatever the current FOTM is. Organisations that do this tend to fold when the meta changes.



You heard it here. The great and all knowing baltec predicts the fall of PL on the next meta swap.

Dude, in a way... you're simply beautiful. I cherrish almost every post you make.... Thank you!
Anni Bonney
D-sync
D-sync.
#35 - 2014-12-31 12:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Anni Bonney
Whats the problem with a delay.

It takes away the advantage of today's tools of real time killboard statistic analyzers,

and don't throw away the. If is not on a killmail it didnt happened.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-12-31 12:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
I was there the day you lost that machariel and remember thinking to myself when I saw the kill mail and how long you'd been in waffles that you might be kicked for losing that ship. It's unfortunate, I've had a few peripheral dealings with you on an alt of mine and recall that you were friendly, generous, and interested in having a good time.

I think part of the culture's evolution, partly as a result of kill boards, has moved to ridicule of all substantial loss, rather than just seeing a big loss for what it is; a mistake or just trying to have fun. TMC with it's ALOD articles, minerbumping, evenews24 and eve related sites garner views from the eye catching nature of big losses or big mistakes, so it isn't surprising that they're characterized satirically or hyperbolically to engender interest. Maybe it is that this attitude bleeds over to the greater consciousness of EVE- I don't know what the source is, I don't even know if it's a good or a bad thing, it's just something that seems to be a part of gaming communities now, not just EVE.

That said, kill mails aren't always a bad thing. They let us determine that a fight actually took place, who the participants were, that someone won, lost, or stalemated. Establishing that fights even took place was difficult in the past. Having a record of a fight is a powerful tool, one that I think overall we'd be at least some small loss without.

Kill mail APIs are probably here to stay; I think that there would be a big outcry from players if they were to lose them in their current state. If they were reworked so that every player, not just the one who landed a killing blow, could get a memento, we might see enough players assent to such a change to make it feasible.

It's unfortunate, but the bottom line, and I almost hate to say this, is that there are a lot of choices of people to play with in this game, and not everyone cares about kill board stats. In fact, the people that blew up your machariel at least say that the dominant metric for their play style is fun per hour. EVE is a big enough game that even if you do get kicked out of an alliance, or do something that many alliances might exclude you for, there are still groups willing to accept you in to the fold to have fun with.

Many of the best pvpers I know don't care about their killboards, and anyone willing to investigate a killboard thoroughly often can see the difference between blindly whelping ships and willingness to take risks to get good (read amazing) fights. Best of luck to you though, I hope you find a fun group of people to play with.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#37 - 2014-12-31 13:29:01 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
I was there the day you lost that machariel and remember thinking to myself when I saw the kill mail and how long you'd been in waffles that you might be kicked for losing that ship. It's unfortunate, I've had a few peripheral dealings with you on an alt of mine and recall that you were friendly, generous, and interested in having a good time.

I think part of the culture's evolution, partly as a result of kill boards, has moved to ridicule of all substantial loss, rather than just seeing a big loss for what it is; a mistake or just trying to have fun. TMC with it's ALOD articles, minerbumping, evenews24 and eve related sites garner views from the eye catching nature of big losses or big mistakes, so it isn't surprising that they're characterized satirically or hyperbolically to engender interest. Maybe it is that this attitude bleeds over to the greater consciousness of EVE- I don't know what the source is, I don't even know if it's a good or a bad thing, it's just something that seems to be a part of gaming communities now, not just EVE.

That said, kill mails aren't always a bad thing. They let us determine that a fight actually took place, who the participants were, that someone won, lost, or stalemated. Establishing that fights even took place was difficult in the past. Having a record of a fight is a powerful tool, one that I think overall we'd be at least some small loss without.

Kill mail APIs are probably here to stay; I think that there would be a big outcry from players if they were to lose them in their current state. If they were reworked so that every player, not just the one who landed a killing blow, could get a memento, we might see enough players assent to such a change to make it feasible.

It's unfortunate, but the bottom line, and I almost hate to say this, is that there are a lot of choices of people to play with in this game, and not everyone cares about kill board stats. In fact, the people that blew up your machariel at least say that the dominant metric for their play style is fun per hour. EVE is a big enough game that even if you do get kicked out of an alliance, or do something that many alliances might exclude you for, there are still groups willing to accept you in to the fold to have fun with.

Many of the best pvpers I know don't care about their killboards, and anyone willing to investigate a killboard thoroughly often can see the difference between blindly whelping ships and willingness to take risks to get good (read amazing) fights. Best of luck to you though, I hope you find a fun group of people to play with.



ARMOR HAC!!!!!!!! AAAAARRMORRRRR HAAAAAAC!!! #$%@% @$&%$3 ARMOR HAC!!!!
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#38 - 2014-12-31 14:01:39 UTC
Anni Bonney wrote:
Whats the problem with a delay.

It takes away the advantage of today's tools of real time killboard statistic analyzers,

and don't throw away the. If is not on a killmail it didnt happened.


No need for delay, in 10 mins (average time to show on KB) an intell is already almost useless, and you need to check it.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
ARMOR HAC!!!!!!!! AAAAARRMORRRRR HAAAAAAC!!! #$%@% @$&%$3 ARMOR HAC!!!!


When someone is doin' wrong while fcing you've got to do something.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-12-31 14:12:17 UTC
I agree with people ITT on attitude part. If someone don't want you because your KB has traces of you having fun, you probably don't want to have anything to do with these people anyway.

I think approaching the issue from "free intel" side makes more sense. Although I'm partial on this one...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#40 - 2014-12-31 14:41:23 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Anni Bonney wrote:
Whats the problem with a delay.

It takes away the advantage of today's tools of real time killboard statistic analyzers,

and don't throw away the. If is not on a killmail it didnt happened.


No need for delay, in 10 mins (average time to show on KB) an intell is already almost useless, and you need to check it.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
ARMOR HAC!!!!!!!! AAAAARRMORRRRR HAAAAAAC!!! #$%@% @$&%$3 ARMOR HAC!!!!


When someone is doin' wrong while fcing you've got to do something.




Agreed. Newbros have to learn. Of the infinite options to help a new guy along or show a guy that will never quite get there to the door, the pooh losing armor hac vid is a classic. If you don't laugh at and feel sorry for the guy every single time you watch that video, then you may need some professional assistance too. C'mon, we all know the vid and we all have the same reaction, let's not try and paint that behavior as normal or OK.

On a scale of 1 to 10 I'll put that guy at roughly a 9.7623.

(zero being 'do nothing', 9.8 being 'taze the bro', and 10 being outright RL execution)