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Fix the Hulk(ageddon)
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Extreme
Eye of God
#1 - 2014-12-29 00:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Extreme
The hulk should had been the number 1 miner, at least it still is when you see the total costs for construction parts, but it got badly nerfed by poor cargohold. So for a few years now the Mackinaw has become the most populair miningship just because the cargohold is better and way cheaper to build and way nicer profits to make.

But Mackageddon?


Seriously, the Hulk should get some love from CCP and so do the 'Hulka Gankers'


CCP make Hulkageddon possible again, fix what you broke 2.5 years ago!


/Extreme



Extreme wrote:
I just checked the bpo's of skif/mack/hulk and they do have the same production times now.

BUT


Using the industry information it will cost 239.5M isk in materials to produce 1 hulk (BPO original with no research)
and can sell it at 216M isk on market.
(exclusive 6.6M production costs and exclusive 1.5M sales tax per ship)

Mack bpo with no research, at the Industry tool, it costs 203M to produce a mack and it sells at 200M on market


Skiff, BPO with no research, 165M to build and selling 165M on market

Conclusion:
Hulk 23.5M loss per produced ship
Mack 3M loss per produced ship
Skiff breaks even

As i used bpo non researched and same market materials (Jita), market fluctuations have no role nor influence on this basic outcome.

Question is why the Industry tool generates at best a break even on the Skiff and a 10% loss (excluding production costs and sales tax of 8M isk). The loss on a produced Hulk is 23.5M plus 8M production costs and tax, 31.5M per ship!

There is also a huge overstock on market so i can conclude Exhumers have become way to strong and/or the penalties in Empire ganking Exhumers have become too strong?
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-12-29 00:47:20 UTC
It needs 500m3 more so it can take 3 rounds of ice. the mechanics on mining need to also change to keep running for one more cycle after the cargo is full if its not overloaded

This would give you 1.999999999999 full cycles extra before you have to jet it
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#3 - 2014-12-29 00:54:45 UTC
you're wrong.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2014-12-29 01:12:27 UTC
Your first false assumption was that the hulk should be the number one miner. They have roles now, not tiers.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#5 - 2014-12-29 01:19:09 UTC
the hulk is still the best mining ship, pulls in more ore than the others, the other ships have things that are better than the hulk like tank and cargohold but the hulk still mines more than the others.

Want to mine lots use a hulk.
Want to mine afk while watching tv use a different one.
Want to not get suicide ganked use the other one.

Only one of those three is best at mining the others are better at not mining.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#6 - 2014-12-29 01:32:21 UTC
Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.

Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.

If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
shimiku
Zircron Industries
#7 - 2014-12-29 02:29:15 UTC
hulk is for group mining it got a small ore hold so it relies on other to do the hauling
mack is for solo because it got a bigger ore hold so you can stay in belt longer
skiff is for ppl that think they might get attacked it got the best tank of them all
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#8 - 2014-12-29 03:01:05 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.

Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.

If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.


Noooes..

The idea was that all barges and exhumers would mine more or less the same amount of ore per time, so you wouldn't be "yield punished" by choosing one over the over three.

If anything we would need a gas harvester module.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#9 - 2014-12-29 03:12:12 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.

Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.

If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.


Noooes..

The idea was that all barges and exhumers would mine more or less the same amount of ore per time, so you wouldn't be "yield punished" by choosing one over the over three.

If anything we would need a gas harvester module.



that was never the idea ever in any of the patches even a little bit. you're so wrong i feel ashamed that i'm telling you that you're wrong but you are so wrong if you were even a little bit more wrong you'd be right
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#10 - 2014-12-29 04:58:51 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.


Well, according to CCP, nobody was using the Skiff when it mined less then the Mach. So they buffed the yield so more people would use it. I am curious as to where they stand now in reference to what area of space.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2014-12-29 10:08:35 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.

Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.

If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.

Skiff does not have BS tank. Unless you are talking about an active tanked BS while measuring it against a passive tanked skiff. It would be far more reasonable to say it has BC sized tank. Also it has weaker than cruiser level drones due to the limited bandwidth available to it. And it doesn't have good yield, especially not if you want to have any kind of DPS on the drones, control range is limited, no utility and no tracking or speed mods for drones either unless you have no tank.
Macks tank also received virtually no buff at all in the changes.
Extreme
Eye of God
#12 - 2014-12-29 13:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Extreme
When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship.


This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP.


The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack.
You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month.
Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk.


So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build.
8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per day 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2014-12-29 13:55:54 UTC
Extreme wrote:
When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship.


This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP.


The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack.
You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month.
Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk.


So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build.
8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per month 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here!



or, perhaps the problem is that there's a glut of hulks on the market still, because they're perceived to be less good than said macks. A solution therefore is "don't produce the damn hulk" until such time that the hulk approaches a better profit point for you (note, it might not ever do that).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#14 - 2014-12-29 14:42:14 UTC
Damn you CCP and your player driven economy.

Oh..wait...

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Extreme
Eye of God
#15 - 2014-12-29 21:10:24 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Damn you CCP and your player driven economy.

Oh..wait...


Totally missing the point here Shocked
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-12-30 00:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Mackinaw is better. Solution: nerf its yield. Hulk is fine.edit: I take it back, after changes the Hulk now mines 40% faster than the Mackinaw.

Better solution: make Retriever and Mackinaw yield more skill-dependent. That 2% barely makes a difference. Decrease their base yield and increase the amount per level.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-12-30 00:23:40 UTC
The Hulk is supposed to be used alongside a Orca for fleet mining, whereas the Skiff and Mackinaw are better used for solo mining. The Hulk, nor the other, need a "fix" for anything since they all three do their job remarkable.
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#18 - 2014-12-30 13:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Elarik
the one and only thing ccp needs to do is get back to

hulk ore
mack ice
skiff mercoxid

i know i know they have roles now

they had roles perfect fine the only thing they had todo is give the same roles the t1 counterpart and adjust the skills


well its my opinion since i hate the changes they made
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-12-30 14:17:41 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
hulk ore
mack ice
skiff mercoxid

I have to disagree. Streamlining a ship into a single use isn't a role. It's just lazy design work. With the new barge roles, you can pick your favorite and use it to mine ore, ice, and mercoxit. Now what you mine doesn't choose your ship for you.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#20 - 2014-12-30 14:49:18 UTC
in my eyes there is no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better

its true you had only the hulk for ore but you could chose your playstyle while doing so TankHulk / CargoHulk / YieldHulk
and now all ships can mine all things but your playstyle choses the ship no difference to the system before now you need
a ship for fleet mining and solo if you want the best yield and before a ship for ore and ice

in my eyes the exumers had more character before the changes in my opinion the balancing was at the wrong end
not 6 ships that can mine all things with nearly the same yield

more ships and more content for miners moon mining or ring mining comet mining there are so many ideas out there and every one could be the steping stone for more ships and more choices for miners Empire vs 0.0 Tank vs Cargo and now add fleet or solo and 90% of all miners know what ship to fly you have many choices as miner NOT
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