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New approach to ECM: discrete targeting units
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Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-12-26 18:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Generaloberst Kluntz
Reaver, blobbing isn't a bad thing and is valid gameplay for sure. It just does not show off any individual prowess unless I'm so stupid I still lose ships while blobbing, as you said. Therefore, what I aim for most times I fly a jamming boat is, going against the odds. That's the only way of getting better in the game, as your teachers in Agony have prolly taught you. That's why IMHO it's so boring to bring -tanked lol- jam ships to a blob. That said, in small or medium gangs specially when fighting at disadvantage, that is when jammers really shine. And that is when positioning and having a full hack of jams in the mids, with better jamming strength and/or optimal provided by the rigs and lows, is way better than tank which makes you slow and/or makes you lose the ability of jamming additional ships or cycling over the same targets when the next cycle fails. I believe any ECM lovers reading this thread know what I'm talking about.
If you can't jam anything you're pretty useless...
ECM as is stands balanced, your suggestion pretty much screws ECM when fighting outnumbered, so while I agree your suggestion is a different and not bad approach when using it the way you use, it DOES NOT benefit those who wanna use it skillfully and is a NERF in this situation.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-12-26 18:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Individual prowess is in listening to the FC, following orders, responding quickly, making judgement calls when you have insufficient data, paying attention to surroundings and assisting with the intel, and learning how to be a good FC. You're still acting smug about not being a "blobber". Even that term completely ignores all of the intricate functions of large fleets.

When I talk about fitting tank I'm not talking about maximizing tank. I fit for a compromise between tank and jam strength. That armor tanked blackbird fit I mentioned has 4 ECM jammers. It has no ECM bonuses but doesn't really need them if you pick the right targets. The majority of people you come across haven't fit any ECCM, the majority of fleets have no remote ECCM, and you rarely meet more than three ships at a time without having at least one good jam target. You keep saying tank is no good if you can't jam anything. Well I've jammed many things while tanked. You can't jam anything if you're dead.

The most anti-jam fit I've ever done on a jam ship was fitting only 3 jammers on a scorpion. This was done as per fitting instructions given before the fleet op. The purpose of the fit was that we were bringing multiple scorpions and were partly buying time while also drawing fire from the more important gun battleships. It worked.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2014-12-26 19:28:30 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


Shakira Akira, if you had one successful jam cycle out of 7 at 2km into falloff, your failure was your jam strength vs their sensor strength, not due to falloff.


Considering that most of the jamms landed once I was within optimal, I say the opposite.. but I'll do a fully controlled test with some alliance mates and give you the results.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

And what is this illusion you guys talk about? I've been in plenty of scenarios in which the enemy used tracking disruption or sensor dampening against us and there was no illusion that it failed to be effective on us a lot of times because our fleet outmaneuvered theirs. I say you can still do stuff because I do do stuff against it all the time. But not against ECM. The only thing you can still do while jammed other than uselessly move (when you're already in the right position) is use drones and F.o.F. missiles, and the missiles are just a waste of cargo space because they attack friendlies. And to be clear, drones are not a counter to just ECM, they are a counter to ALL jamming.


FoF missiles do not attack friendlies. Anyways, the way I see it is this, other EWAR it's your fighting skills that determine if you can come out of it alive. ECM it's your piloting skills. Granted we can argue about this till the cows come home.

However, back to your idea, the reason it would be a nerf, because most proper fights you only need a few locks to be effective, it's only logi that needs to prelock a lot, but even then, they can easily do their jobs with just 1-2 locks. Since your plan is to jam a random number of locks, even if 1 lock stays active, the jam is really already a fail, so using ECM is not a benefit at all.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-12-26 20:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Shakira Akira wrote:
FoF missiles do not attack friendlies.
Is that so? Not what I was told. I'll admit I never used them, but I distinctly remember hearing from multiple sources that they hit friendlies. Also I've carried them in cargo but never spent enough time jammed to warrant loading them in the launchers, especially since they have much lower DPS.

Shakira Akira wrote:
Anyways, the way I see it is this, other EWAR it's your fighting skills that determine if you can come out of it alive. ECM it's your piloting skills. Granted we can argue about this till the cows come home.
How is it piloting skills with ECM? I just explained howit's piloting skills with damps and tracking disruptors. With ECM, moving around isn't going to help unless you have one of the niche fits with longer range than ECM ships.

Shakira Akira wrote:
However, back to your idea, the reason it would be a nerf, because most proper fights you only need a few locks to be effective, it's only logi that needs to prelock a lot, but even then, they can easily do their jobs with just 1-2 locks. Since your plan is to jam a random number of locks, even if 1 lock stays active, the jam is really already a fail, so using ECM is not a benefit at all.
I already explained that much of the offensive potential is in breaking an already existing lock, forcing you to re-lock. Also, logi can certainly NOT do their job just as well with 1-2 locks, clearly you have never flown logi. And third, it doesn't take much to go from jamming the majority of a ship's locks to completely jamming them. My proposal says nothing about preventing ECM from ever jamming a ship completely, but merely proposes making that a bit more difficult.

We can debate all day till the cows come home but if you wish to continue ignoring my points and saying the same thing you've already said which I've already countered, and ignoring my counter-points, then are you really debating, or are you just being argumentative?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2014-12-26 21:55:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Individual prowess is in listening to the FC, following orders, responding quickly, making judgement calls when you have insufficient data, paying attention to surroundings and assisting with the intel, and learning how to be a good FC. You're still acting smug about not being a "blobber". Even that term completely ignores all of the intricate functions of large fleets.

When I talk about fitting tank I'm not talking about maximizing tank. I fit for a compromise between tank and jam strength. That armor tanked blackbird fit I mentioned has 4 ECM jammers. It has no ECM bonuses but doesn't really need them if you pick the right targets. The majority of people you come across haven't fit any ECCM, the majority of fleets have no remote ECCM, and you rarely meet more than three ships at a time without having at least one good jam target. You keep saying tank is no good if you can't jam anything. Well I've jammed many things while tanked. You can't jam anything if you're dead.

The most anti-jam fit I've ever done on a jam ship was fitting only 3 jammers on a scorpion. This was done as per fitting instructions given before the fleet op. The purpose of the fit was that we were bringing multiple scorpions and were partly buying time while also drawing fire from the more important gun battleships. It worked.


1. Listening FC and following orders is what? prowess? seriously? Assisting with Intel is prowess? Intricate functions of large fleets? Where the FC experience largely overshadows that of each member?
2. Try picking right targets with a bricked BB when you're outnumbered and out of optimal lol. Almost nobody fits ECCM? Really? Where do you live in New Eden bud? ?You rarely meet more than 3 jammable ships at a time? ?? From my experience you have to try to jam at least four and even then you'd try to jam more if it's possible. Clearly nullblob mentalities here.
3. See, almost every time I roam in null or lowsec people take lots of time to gather Intel Intel Intel. While wasting lots of precious time that should be used having fun. ... Then again, if you take your time (like, while boring the enemy fleet to death) to gather Intel you may as well not being ECM. You are already outnumbering your foes.
That proves it's because of people like you that ECM is so hated. "F@ck these guys we are in three vagas a keres 2 ceptors and an ishtar but they bring 10 ishtars plus tackle and three blackbirds on top, with 2 guardians? ? For what did we wait 60 minutes, what a ****** formup! !!!!!" Lol.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#86 - 2014-12-26 22:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Shakira Akira wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


Shakira Akira, if you had one successful jam cycle out of 7 at 2km into falloff, your failure was your jam strength vs their sensor strength, not due to falloff.


Considering that most of the jamms landed once I was within optimal, I say the opposite.. but I'll do a fully controlled test with some alliance mates and give you the results.


Welcome to RNG, once you start attempting to jam into falloff, it becomes a 2 roll equation instead of 1. The first roll is the standard jam strength/sensor strength equation, but then there is another roll that determines if you hit or not. So assuming you have a 50% chance to jam the target based off your jam strength, but you're exactly halfway through your total falloff, you would have an amazing 25% chance to get a successful jam off on the target.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

How is it piloting skills with ECM? I just explained howit's piloting skills with damps and tracking disruptors. With ECM, moving around isn't going to help unless you have one of the niche fits with longer range than ECM ships.


Ok, let's see here, I'm going to use a vindi as an example. I have one already in EFT with 2 shiny tracking enhancers and 1 shiny tracking computer so I will use that one as the example.

Optimal Range Script
Void: 9+11
Antimatter: 6+22
Null: 17+30

3x Meta 4 optimal range tracking disruptors from a Curse (Fitted with 2x T1 Tracking Diagnostic Subroutine rigs)
Void: 0.9+1
Antimatter: 0.6+2
Null: 1.6+2.9

So even when shooting Null, the vindi stops applying all gun damage at 7.4 km.

So let's add a second shiny tracking computer scripted with optimal range. So we are at 2 shiny enhancers and 2 shiny computers.

Void: 0.9+1.2
Antimatter: 0.6+2.4
Null: 1.7+3.3

This has extended Null's limit to 8.3 km.

So anything past that point, and the only thing the vindi can do when compared to being jammed out is...

-Maintain point
-Maintain web
-Personally assign drones to a target (Note: even when jammed you can still assign your drones to a friendly target and the drones will still do their thing)

But wait, there's more, that curse can do this every cycle from 72km out and not have a single miss.

Now let's take a quick loot at the falcon. Now let's give the falcon's jams the best possible chance to work against the same Vindi, so we will fit it out for max jam strength.

Jam Strength: 14.77
Vindi's Sensor Strength: 33.6
Chance to jam per jammer: 48.37%

But wait, there's more, with the jam strength fit, the optimal range is only at 55km with a 48km falloff. That also has to be a racial jammer to counter the vindi. Let's look at off racial and multispec jammers quick to see how it changes things.

Off Racial Jam Strength: 4.92
Chance to jam per jammer: 14.64%

Multispec Jam Strength: 9.85
Chance to jam per jammer: 29.31%

But multi specs come at another cost, which is range. Multi spec only have a 36+32 optimal+falloff, while the racials have a 55+48.

But let's throw on an ECCM mod on the Vindi and look at things quick.

Racial chance to jam per jammer: 22.41%
Off racial chance to jam per jammer: 7.47%
Multispec chance to jam per jammer: 14.95%

So from what I can see from everything I posted above, even though you think you still might be able to do something against tracking disruptors when you are comparing them to ECM, in a real fight, you will be dead. Also the effects of the tracking disruptors are equally devastating if they have tracking scripts in.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I already explained that much of the offensive potential is in breaking an already existing lock, forcing you to re-lock. Also, logi can certainly NOT do their job just as well with 1-2 locks, clearly you have never flown logi.


You are only looking at medium to large sized fleets. A logi can do quite well with 1-2 locks when they are in a 3 person fleet. Especially since they don't even have to keep the target locked up to get the reps out, they simply need to have the target locked to begin their module cycle.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-12-26 22:33:27 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I already explained that much of the offensive potential is in breaking an already existing lock, forcing you to re-lock. Also, logi can certainly NOT do their job just as well with 1-2 locks, clearly you have never flown logi. And third, it doesn't take much to go from jamming the majority of a ship's locks to completely jamming them. My proposal says nothing about preventing ECM from ever jamming a ship completely, but merely proposes making that a bit more difficult.


But breaking lock on something is not very effective when you can relock them in 1-3 seconds when its the same size as yours. As for your logi.., I didn't say they will be JUST as effective, I said they can still do their job. BIG difference.. Considering you can now have 15 members on your WL. prelocking targets is not that important anymore. Sure it'll save precious time, but you can still rep your primary and maybe even a secondary with just 2 locks. and even if you break that lock, I'll have that relocked in 2-3 seconds, unless you're an alpha fleet, that will not matter that much as you won't be able to kill it before I apply reps again..

FYI.. I flew logi only for like 6 months before I got bored of it. I found it to be annoying in the huge fights, I enjoy it much more in little fights, but the extra DPS was always nicer, or I'd fly a falcon instead for the fun factor.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-12-27 18:26:22 UTC
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
You rarely meet more than 3 jammable ships at a time? ??
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
and you rarely meet more than three ships at a time without having at least one good jam target.




Hopelesshobo wrote:
Ok, let's see here, I'm going to use a vindi as an example.

Could you have found any ship with a higher native sensor strength? I'm sorry, but I'm just not accustomed to seeing fleets of Vindicators flying around nullsec terrorizing everyone.



Shakira Akira wrote:
But breaking lock on something is not very effective when you can relock them in 1-3 seconds when its the same size as yours.
3 seconds, perhaps, if you're in a cruiser. Even most frigates don't lock targets back in one second. And three seconds is plenty enough time to make or break a fight.

Shakira Akira wrote:
Sure it'll save precious time, but you can still rep your primary and maybe even a secondary with just 2 locks.
Not if you're a cap chain logi.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#89 - 2014-12-27 19:16:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Hopelesshobo wrote:
Ok, let's see here, I'm going to use a vindi as an example.

Could you have found any ship with a higher native sensor strength? I'm sorry, but I'm just not accustomed to seeing fleets of Vindicators flying around nullsec terrorizing everyone.


I don't see fleets of Falcons either (Outside of blopsing someone), should I have used something with a weaker jam strength as well? I personally have been in a few wars in highsec with the a single to a handful of vindis with a couple neutral guardians backing them up. I also know a few people who fly pirate hulls in lowsec on occasion.

It seems like you are basing your entire thread on your experiences in nulsec alone, and you are not thinking about how this change would affect other areas of gameplay.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-12-27 19:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
The majority of PVP happens between tech 1 or cheap tech 2 ships, regardless of the space you're in. I'm not suggesting anything that will give some sort of advantage to nullsec at the expense of other space.

Perhaps your long-winded explanation would have made more sense if you used a more typical example, say, a Blackbird vs. a Caracal, or a Falcon vs. a Zealot. But then the jam chance would have been much higher and I fear your point would have been lost. Also, weren't you trying to suggest that piloting skills make more difference with ECM than with other EWAR? You used a blaster-fit ship as an example. Most ships can still shoot you once you're out of their web range.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#91 - 2014-12-27 21:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The majority of PVP happens between tech 1 or cheap tech 2 ships, regardless of the space you're in. I'm not suggesting anything that will give some sort of advantage to nullsec at the expense of other space.


Except that it does because this change makes it so logi can reliably hold a few locks while being jammed, which means it's a nerf to ECM in small fleet warfare and a buff to logi as a result.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Perhaps your long-winded explanation would have made more sense if you used a more typical example, say, a Blackbird vs. a Caracal, or a Falcon vs. a Zealot. But then the jam chance would have been much higher and I fear your point would have been lost.


Ask and you shall receive.

Blackbird (2x Distortion Amps and 2x Dispersion Augmentors)
Racial Jam Strength: 10.23
Off Racial Jam Strength: 3.41
Multi Spec Jam Strength: 6.82

Caracal
Sensor Strength: 19.2
Racial Jam Chance: 53.28%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 17.7%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 35.52%

With 1 ECCM: 37.6
Racial Jam Chance: 27.20%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 9.07%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 18.14%

Guardian
Sensor Strength: 22.8
Racial Jam Chance: 44.87%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 14.96%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 29.91%

With 1 ECCM: 44.7
Racial Jam Chance: 22.86%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 7.63%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 15.26%

Falcon (2x Distortion Amps and 2x Dispersion Augmentors)
Racial Jam Strength: 14.62
Off Racial Jam Strength: 4.87
Multi Spec Jam Strength: 9.75

Zealot
Sensor Strength: 25.2
Racial Jam Chance: 58.02%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 19.33%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 38.69%

With 1 ECCM: 49.4
Racial Jam Chance: 29.60%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 9.86%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 19.74%

Guardian
Sensor Strength: 22.8
Racial Jam Chance: 64.12%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 21.36%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 42.76%

With 1 ECCM: 44.7
Racial Jam Chance: 32.71%
Off Racial Jam Chance: 10.89%
Multi Spec Jam Chance: 21.81%

Now, if we compare a curse to a zealot, even with beams and aurora, it won't hit anything past 10km. But those TDs won't miss within 72km. *If you would like specific numbers, let me know*

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Also, weren't you trying to suggest that piloting skills make more difference with ECM than with other EWAR? You used a blaster-fit ship as an example. Most ships can still shoot you once you're out of their web range.


No, I was trying illustrating that when you are properly tracking disrupted, even though you have claimed that there is some pilot (not SP) skill involved in countering it, realistically speaking, it doesn't.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-12-28 04:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Generaloberst Kluntz
Reaver, your understanding about ECM is pretty limited, as also is the way you intend to use it. In blob fleets, on top of main fleet. That's not even the main application those ships were designed for.
You say most ships can still shoot you at range, great, that actually makes one of my points, being: you need piloting skill in order to know when to avoid said damage.
Just fit some ECM ships, grab a Griffin for example, go to FW space in a small gang. Then see how your idea looks like.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-12-28 05:09:42 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
No, I was trying illustrating that when you are properly tracking disrupted, even though you have claimed that there is some pilot (not SP) skill involved in countering it, realistically speaking, it doesn't.
You just gotta drop the fleet on top of them and lock them down. When the enemy is using tracking disruptors, you don't fight at range. If your fleet doesn't have brawlers then you avoid the tracking disrupting fleet.

That is navigation skill. Yes the skill of the FC is far more important than the skill of fleet members, but everyone else doesn't just mindlessly push the buttons they are told. There is a lot more to being a good fleet member than that. I'm not saying that being a good fleet member is hard, just that it isn't easy.



Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
Just fit some ECM ships, grab a Griffin for example, go to FW space in a small gang. Then see how your idea looks like.
I already agree that evading ECM takes some navigation skill, I'm saying it takes less than other disruption because it isn't as range-based. You certainly can use it effectively in a brawl. But with the other disruptions, you want to find your best engagement range to make your disruption as effective as possible, because even minor variations in range can make a significant difference in how well it applies.

I don't know what you're talking about with my idea about ECM, but I think you're putting words into my mouth.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#94 - 2014-12-28 05:37:13 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
No, I was trying illustrating that when you are properly tracking disrupted, even though you have claimed that there is some pilot (not SP) skill involved in countering it, realistically speaking, it doesn't.
You just gotta drop the fleet on top of them and lock them down. When the enemy is using tracking disruptors, you don't fight at range. If your fleet doesn't have brawlers then you avoid the tracking disrupting fleet.

That is navigation skill. Yes the skill of the FC is far more important than the skill of fleet members, but everyone else doesn't just mindlessly push the buttons they are told. There is a lot more to being a good fleet member than that. I'm not saying that being a good fleet member is hard, just that it isn't easy.


And when you start orbiting at sub 5km from the other fleet, they just swap to tracking scripts and watch as you suddenly start missing/grazing every shot while they can shoot you just fine.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-12-28 06:11:59 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
And when you start orbiting at sub 5km from the other fleet, they just swap to tracking scripts and watch as you suddenly start missing/grazing every shot while they can shoot you just fine.

Or you pop webs on them and don't orbit. Then you both shoot each other just fine, only your fleet doesn't have ships wasted on tracking disruptors that aren't providing any benefit.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#96 - 2014-12-28 08:53:52 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
And when you start orbiting at sub 5km from the other fleet, they just swap to tracking scripts and watch as you suddenly start missing/grazing every shot while they can shoot you just fine.

Or you pop webs on them and don't orbit. Then you both shoot each other just fine, only your fleet doesn't have ships wasted on tracking disruptors that aren't providing any benefit.


Ok, so I decided to check this out on 2 pulse Zealots.

Both are fit the same tracking wise with 1 tracking computer and 1 enhancer. From there they are both shooting multifreq (Higher tracking then conflag). 1 of them is moving with a MWD, but he has 3 webs on him and moving at max velocity.

So, with this baseline, if 1 zealot is getting TD'd with optimal range scripts, the dps graph stays together until it hits 1.1 km, where it breaks off to the point where its 293 dps vs 48 dps at 2 km.

So, this means that to be competitive against optimal range scripts, they have to stay sub 1.1 km from the non TD'd zealot. If we look at tracking scripts however, we look at 293 dps vs 13 dps at 2 km.

If we slow down the webbed, non TD'd zealot down to 50% of its max velocity, we look at 303 dps vs 106 dps at 2 km. At the 1 km mark, the TD'd zealot actually gets on the graph at the 1 km range at this point with a 294 dps vs 15 dps.

Now let's assume you have the zealot scrammed, is webbed, is moving at 50% of its velocity and is orbiting you while you sit still. You are looking at 302 dps vs 90 dps at 1 km.

So at least with pulse Zealots, I'm not seeing how there is much of a competition since beyond 1 km, you will just get optimal scripted down to nothing, and if you close the distance to sub 1 km, even with 3 webs on the zealot, you won't apply when you get tracking disrupted.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Quadima
HyperDreams Studios
#97 - 2014-12-28 08:57:23 UTC
How about this instead ?
The jamming time should depend on the strength difference as well.

And perhaps a new skill "Sensor Recovery Time" which would further reduce this time.

If you get jammed by something strong/specialized, you look at how beautiful the stars are for a long time... (with a max of 30 sec for example so it doesn't become too OP)

If you get jammed by something weak, or a few EC-300 jamming drones, in 5 seconds your sensors are back up and you can start locking.

... just a concept.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#98 - 2014-12-28 09:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Quadima wrote:
How about this instead ?
The jamming time should depend on the strength difference as well.

And perhaps a new skill "Sensor Recovery Time" which would further reduce this time.

If you get jammed by something strong/specialized, you look at how beautiful the stars are for a long time... (with a max of 30 sec for example so it doesn't become too OP)

If you get jammed by something weak, or a few EC-300 jamming drones, in 5 seconds your sensors are back up and you can start locking.

... just a concept.


So you want to punish someone twice for having a weak jam strength? By not only having a decreased chance at jamming, but also have a shorter jam time as well?

EDIT: Unless you are referring to getting rid of the chance roll at jamming, and basing everything off of the time you are jammed. Which if this is the case it would be extremely OP as most people would carry around some form of ECM, and simply align out, jam the target, then warp off.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2014-12-28 09:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Ok, so I decided to check this out on 2 pulse Zealots.

I think I need to clarify/fix what I said earlier:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
When the enemy is using tracking disruptors, you don't fight at range. If your fleet doesn't have brawlers then you avoid the tracking disrupting fleet.

Once you know the other fleet has a dangerous amount tracking disruptors compared to your fleet size (you can guess this before engaging if they have any ships with bonuses to tracking disruption), you'll want to avoid engaging them unless you have a good weapon setup for it. Pulse lasers on Zealots can work, but not with multifrequency. If they have a similar-sized fleet in which half of their members are in TD ships and you have all pulse Zealots, you'd want to engage with Scorch ammo if you're going to engage at all. You can expect them to spread tracking disruption out across your whole fleet, so you'll need a way to hit them. Best to engage if you have a significant number of webs and target painters among your group. You'd want to web the focus target and get fleet members into a good position to shoot. This range will probably be more than 3-4km as it is unlikely that they will be able to spread double/triple damps across your whole fleet. More likely they will focus damps once they see you get to a decent range, and at least 33% your fleet will shoot fine. If they do spread em out, any ships with only single damps (optimal range disruption) will be able to shoot out to 15-20km depending on skills of both pilots. With enough webs and painters, you can easily beat that kind of tracking on the focus target. Start focusing their TD ships if they are a problem, and when and if you start pulling ahead, stop shooting TD ships and start going for their guns/logi.


Quadima, I'll need more time to consider your idea before I give a full response. I think the idea doesn't stand on its own at all (too easy to break locks with EC-300) but could perhaps work in combination with the current jam system or maybe even better with my proposal.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-12-28 10:20:59 UTC
Quadima wrote:
How about this instead ?
The jamming time should depend on the strength difference as well.

And perhaps a new skill "Sensor Recovery Time" which would further reduce this time.

If you get jammed by something strong/specialized, you look at how beautiful the stars are for a long time... (with a max of 30 sec for example so it doesn't become too OP)

If you get jammed by something weak, or a few EC-300 jamming drones, in 5 seconds your sensors are back up and you can start locking.

... just a concept.

Howabout this: take something from my proposal: each target lock has a chance to be jammed separately. If they get jammed, the length of time is randomized based on jam strength vs. sensor strength. So you may get fully jammed out but some of your locks will free up before others. The higher your sensor strength and the more max locks you have, the less likely you are to get jammed for any significant amount of time.

Ships with high sensor strength and few max targets: fairly likely to get jammed but probably not for long; able to re-lock pretty quickly.

Ships with low sensor strength but high max targets: will get jammed easily but likely to be able to re-lock immediately or very soon.

Ships with low sensor strength and low max targets: easily jammed out and will probably not have much time unjammed, but based on the randomness, will probably be unjammed every once in a while.

Ships with high sensor strength and high max targets: will lose target lock every once in a while but will almost always be able to re-lock immediately.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."