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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#321 - 2014-12-28 00:06:32 UTC
Nodire Hermetz wrote:

too see if a ship is good and/or popular you check one things first : Killboard



Ok then lets look at the KB.

The current most deadly ship is the saber.

The third most deadly ship and this months deadliest frigate is the Stiletto.

In sixth place is the cynable, an apparently useless ship.

Then we have the thrasher in tenth.

Near all sabers and stilettos uses autos and the cynable and thrasher a 50/50 split between autos and arty.


4 out of the top ten deadliest ships isn't exactly the hallmarks of an underpowered class. Blaster boats have nothing in the top ten unless you count the proteus but if we do that we have to count the loki too.
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#322 - 2014-12-28 00:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
baltec1 wrote:
Nodire Hermetz wrote:

too see if a ship is good and/or popular you check one things first : Killboard



Ok then lets look at the KB.

The current most deadly ship is the saber.

The third most deadly ship and this months deadliest frigate is the Stiletto.

In sixth place is the cynable, an apparently useless ship.

Then we have the thrasher in tenth.

Near all sabers and stilettos uses autos and the cynable and thrasher a 50/50 split between autos and arty.


4 out of the top ten deadliest ships isn't exactly the hallmarks of an underpowered class. Blaster boats have nothing in the top ten unless you count the proteus but if we do that we have to count the loki too.


Dude , we speak here about rebalancing MEDIUM PROJECTILE WEAPON , not small but nevermind , let's do this

-Sabre : the best Dictor because he is the fastest , the tankish , ha has the smallest sig (even with shield extender), not ONLY because of autocanon (and here , it's a SMALL SIZE WEAPON ships , but ok , you make some point here)
-Stiletto : OMG dude , when you flying a ceptor , I don't think that you are thinking FIRST about the weapon/dps you doing ...
please , no .. seriously , it's just a really fast Inty , that's why he is popular , not because he has good autocanon ...please
-Trasher : Same things that the Sabre , but it's a way cheaper and he is the only one GOOD Arty plateform related to his optimal bonuses , but AGAIN its a SMALL SIZE WEAPON category !!

So , you mention the Cynabal , ok good point here
BUT
If you check some kills/looses you see lot of things
They are always the lowest or one of the lowest damage dealer in every kill
Lots of Wormhole Entity use it a lot
and a Lot of kill are made in HighSec , most of them by HighSec Wardecker

So , again , it's not because it's a good autocanon plateform , it's because of his role bonuses : Warp Speed Bonuses
He can come faster to leech the kills , he can covered a lot of system more faster than any cruiser hull
etc etc

and you still not EXPLAIN with GOOD counter-argument the question what we have ask since 10 post
Quote:

WHY do yo think that giving 10-15% falloff to autocanons will make it OP and bringing back a FOTM ship ? (i think that orthrus/gila/ishtar are a way more powerfull than an actual vaga/stabber...)
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#323 - 2014-12-28 00:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:
Nodire Hermetz wrote:

too see if a ship is good and/or popular you check one things first : Killboard



Ok then lets look at the KB.

The current most deadly ship is the saber.

The third most deadly ship and this months deadliest frigate is the Stiletto.

In sixth place is the cynable, an apparently useless ship.

Then we have the thrasher in tenth.

Near all sabers and stilettos uses autos and the cynable and thrasher a 50/50 split between autos and arty.


4 out of the top ten deadliest ships isn't exactly the hallmarks of an underpowered class. Blaster boats have nothing in the top ten unless you count the proteus but if we do that we have to count the loki too.


Let's look at the cynabal kb, frigs, frigs, frigs, T1 cruiser, frigs, frigs.

Why sabre is the most deadliest ? Coz it's the most used dictor, thanks to his slot layout and his speed.

Stiletto ? Good speed good slot layout, you're not looking for damages, just effectiveness.
PPL has never said that cynabal was useless, he is still an anti-support, the worst in the game and his mainly used to gate camp (lol ?) ppl use it for his natural good scan res and mobility.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#324 - 2014-12-28 01:47:21 UTC
At this point, you are making excuses to try to convince yourselves its the tools not the pilot at fault here. The likes of Sniggwaffe, PL, CFC, NC., Brave and the WH groups and highsec wardecers all use autocannon ships when roaming. The market share is the same as any of the other ships you lot consider good and they have a healthy showing in the top 10 deadliest ships. All the evidence shows matari ships are in the same ballpark as the other races.
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#325 - 2014-12-28 10:29:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
At this point, you are making excuses to try to convince yourselves its the tools not the pilot at fault here. The likes of Sniggwaffe, PL, CFC, NC., Brave and the WH groups and highsec wardecers all use autocannon ships when roaming. The market share is the same as any of the other ships you lot consider good and they have a healthy showing in the top 10 deadliest ships. All the evidence shows matari ships are in the same ballpark as the other races.



its not excuses dude , its the reality
go fly solo and/or in small gang for 1 mounth and come back speak about how is great to fly minmatar ships
you refuse to see all the argument
our'r trolling with completely fake fact like market activity or **** like that (OMG im still can't believe about this)

and you did'nt respond at my question 10 post ago , stop evading

WHY do you think sincerely that giving 10-15% faloff will give our FOTM at minmatar pilots ?
Explain plz
Arla Sarain
#326 - 2014-12-28 12:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
baltec1 wrote:
Nodire Hermetz wrote:

too see if a ship is good and/or popular you check one things first : Killboard


The third most deadly ship and this months deadliest frigate is the Stiletto.


Now you are just trolling.

I thought you were maybe talking sense a few pages back (in regards to larger A/C), but you are really just clueless.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#327 - 2014-12-28 13:56:25 UTC
Im pretty sure baltec is trying so hard because he doesnt want to lose blaster supremecy. I just saw a video of a hyperion or mega shooting frigs at 30-50km with null. He also hasnt responded directly to my points. Just side-stepping it and repeating the same tired arguement that has already been discussed with counter points. He didnt even attempt to counter what God's or i have said.

He's afraid a medium range weapon will out range his close range weapon and doesnt like that. He wants blasters to be the new ac. His ignorance is overflowing with every post in the past page. I mean really? The sabre? You know how many sabres sit in null with a falcon alt? I mean the whole market data theory is so flawed.. its hard to take him seriously anymore.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#328 - 2014-12-28 16:37:36 UTC
Agreed with OP.

Further more for nay sayers i find their usage of pirate hulls as any sort of evidence is moot those ships are on steroids and are like 0.1% of ships that have to deal with an issue of AC being underwhelmed.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#329 - 2014-12-28 22:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Im pretty sure baltec is trying so hard because he doesnt want to lose blaster supremecy. I just saw a video of a hyperion or mega shooting frigs at 30-50km with null. He also hasnt responded directly to my points. Just side-stepping it and repeating the same tired arguement that has already been discussed with counter points. He didnt even attempt to counter what God's or i have said.

He's afraid a medium range weapon will out range his close range weapon and doesnt like that. He wants blasters to be the new ac. His ignorance is overflowing with every post in the past page. I mean really? The sabre? You know how many sabres sit in null with a falcon alt? I mean the whole market data theory is so flawed.. its hard to take him seriously anymore.


I have responded to your points, several times now. You have ignored them every time and refuse anything that goes against you. There is no talking sense in this thread because you have made up your minds and won't budge, just like all of the other minority groups knocking around here.

If I was defending overpowered blasters then I ask you where are all of the blaster boats? If auto ships are no good then why do so many fly them in roaming gangs? If people don't buy the ships to use them then what exactly are they doing with them?

Lets have more stats.

When it comes to kills amounted per ship in the cruiser class (stabber, rax, arbi, moa and so on) the matari ships are on par with every other race. Are there outliers? sure. The cynable for example is the deadliest of the pirate ship while the Augoror is the most underwhelming killer out there. When it comes to popularity the blackbird, arbi, stabber, rupture, celestis and maller are all roughly in the same ballpark. The same numbers show up in the market data so yes, people who buy the ships are indeed using them.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#330 - 2014-12-28 22:16:52 UTC
Baltec1's Solo Kills

When you've killed 18 ships solo, over your entire career, please don't come here and act like you are on top of the current Meta. I asked you before, please stop posting in my thread, you don't know what you are talking about.

-Badman
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#331 - 2014-12-28 22:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Baltec1's Solo Kills

When you've killed 18 ships solo, over your entire career, please don't come here and act like you are on top of the current Meta. I asked you before, please stop posting in my thread, you don't know what you are talking about.


Best not to go down this path with a guy with a fleet doctrine named after him due to adapting hulls to any and every situation.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#332 - 2014-12-28 22:58:20 UTC
I said it, I mean it. Next time Goons take out a fleet of 100 stabbers let me know.

-Badman
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#333 - 2014-12-28 23:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Baltec1's Solo Kills

When you've killed 18 ships solo, over your entire career, please don't come here and act like you are on top of the current Meta. I asked you before, please stop posting in my thread, you don't know what you are talking about.


Best not to go down this path with a guy with a fleet doctrine named after him due to adapting hulls to any and every situation.


Gz, you created a blob setup, is it hard ? no

Pick a cheap hull, not skill intensive, which can deal damage at long range, is it hard to find ? no

Does it means that you are a genius ? Definetly no

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42350895/ Srly...


Ppl keep buying cynabal, well, does it mean that it's a good ship ? no

Most of them fly it because of its past, most of the kills come from few ppl that are ganking / camping.

Exemple ?

https://zkillboard.com/character/1631883104/

Could he used another ship to do it ? Yes
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#334 - 2014-12-28 23:31:00 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Baltec1's Solo Kills

When you've killed 18 ships solo, over your entire career, please don't come here and act like you are on top of the current Meta. I asked you before, please stop posting in my thread, you don't know what you are talking about.


Best not to go down this path with a guy with a fleet doctrine named after him due to adapting hulls to any and every situation.


Gz, you created a blob setup, is it hard ? no

Pick a cheap hull, not skill intensive, which can deal damage at long range, is it hard to find ? no

Does it means that you are a genius ? Definetly no

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42350895/ Srly...


Ppl keep buying cynabal, well, does it mean that it's a good ship ? no

Most of them fly it because of its past, most of the kills come from few ppl that are ganking / camping.

Exemple ?

https://zkillboard.com/character/1631883104/

Could he used another ship to do it ? Yes


So, let me get this right.

The other pirate ships are better than the cynable yet the cynable is killing a great deal more... To say people are buying them simply for nostalgic reasons is just rubbish. They are an effective ship, as show by the fact that they are collecting skulls at a much more rappid rate than the likes of the phantasm and vigil.

As for that megathron, lets see if any of you know why it was fit like that and why the CFC allows me to fly it..
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#335 - 2014-12-28 23:39:19 UTC
It was probably fit like that because a Tempest wouldn't be able to do the job. Baltec1, now I've asked you twice, stop posting on my thread.

-Badman
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2014-12-29 00:02:51 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
It was probably fit like that because a Tempest wouldn't be able to do the job.



Pest would be a hell of a lot easier, I wouldn't need as many cap mods for a start.

Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Baltec1, now I've asked you twice, stop posting on my thread.
Sure thing, just as soon as you lot stop spouting untruths.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#337 - 2014-12-29 00:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
baltec1 wrote:

As for that megathron, lets see if any of you know why it was fit like that and why the CFC allows me to fly it..


You fit it like this to be able to follow a tengu fleet while in mega (wahow, can i create setup for CFC now ? Was it a test ?)

Why CFC let you fly in ? Becoz you've no tengu skills ?

baltec1 wrote:

The other pirate ships are better than the cynable yet the cynable is killing a great deal more... To say people are buying them simply for nostalgic reasons is just rubbish


No, it's a fact, during many years this was expensive as hell and was shining because of its ability to fight, now it's not the case anymore.

baltec1 wrote:
They are an effective ship, as show by the fact that they are collecting skulls at a much more rappid rate than the likes of the phantasm and vigil.


They are mobile, and because of it, it's a good tool to gank people is that hard to understand ?

Does it means that's its a good ship ? no

Does it means that you can fight effectively with this ship ? no
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2014-12-29 01:02:33 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:


No, it's a fact, during many years this was expensive as hell and was shining because of its ability to fight, now it's not the case anymore.


Using that logic where are all the drakes?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2014-12-29 01:32:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The current most deadly ship is the saber.

The third most deadly ship and this months deadliest frigate is the Stiletto.

In sixth place is the cynable, an apparently useless ship.

Then we have the thrasher in tenth.

Near all sabers and stilettos uses autos and the cynable and thrasher a 50/50 split between autos and arty.


4 out of the top ten deadliest ships isn't exactly the hallmarks of an underpowered class. Blaster boats have nothing in the top ten unless you count the proteus but if we do that we have to count the loki too.

What if the guns are underpowered but the hulls are overpowered to compensate? I submit that that would not be balanced and should be changed, were it the case.


baltec1 wrote:
As for that megathron, lets see if any of you know why it was fit like that and why the CFC allows me to fly it.

My guess is that you were in a strat op? Given its high DPS and fast ability to warp out, paired with cap stability, I'd have to suppose you were expecting a long fight without being shot at, with the ability to run quick if you did get shot at. Or you were doing a POS bash in enemy territory and wanted to be in and out quickly. Or both. But I really see nothing particularly odd about the fit.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#340 - 2014-12-29 01:50:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:


No, it's a fact, during many years this was expensive as hell and was shining because of its ability to fight, now it's not the case anymore.


Using that logic where are all the drakes?



BC nerf + Tiers 3 + Missile nerf + Mainly a doctrine ship.