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Mechanics to Encourage Fights

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Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2014-12-25 19:33:43 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
What about basic ships of varying classes (say up to BC) and modules of basic strengths that anyone can fly (so long as you can fly the class of ship) and fit which are seeded by the game server. Perhaps this would encourage people to fight because ultimately they're throwaway ships that don't impact on their finances and can be done jumped into anywhere in any NPC corp in space


One of the greatest things about eve is meaningful loss.


Even though getting popped in a single volley from a heavier ship won't encourage people to fly better ships with more vigour and give someone an actual incentive to PVP with proper ships and modules? Just because rookie ships exist doesn't mean everyone will PVP with them.


I dunno about you, but "Man I got shitstomped, why was I stupid enough to MWD directly towards a gun BS while in a t1 frigate" Is both an incentive to fly better ships and fly them with more skills.

Also seeded ships are bad, very very bad. Even seeded shuttles were very bad, and you still had to pay for them.

Player run economy, everything built by players for players (Aside from the few cases like skill books and system upgrades, which are for isk sink/gameplay reasons)

No magically appearing ships, and especially no magically appearing FREE ships.
Bob Maths
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-12-25 20:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Maths
Anhenka wrote:



I dunno about you, but "Man I got shitstomped, why was I stupid enough to MWD directly towards a gun BS while in a t1 frigate" Is both an incentive to fly better ships and fly them with more skills.


That was the point

Anhenka wrote:


Also seeded ships are bad, very very bad. Even seeded shuttles were very bad, and you still had to pay for them.

Player run economy, everything built by players for players (Aside from the few cases like skill books and system upgrades, which are for isk sink/gameplay reasons)

No magically appearing ships, and especially no magically appearing FREE ships.



How is the game accessible - and one of the main points of the game - to new players when the only way to really engage it is after 3 months or 6 months when you have proper specialisations or economy to play the game? The major problem with 'player-ran' economies or indeed the 'free market' concept as a whole is that eventually it becomes an exclusive arena with very little accessibility. The 'civilian class' ship idea is really to get the players into the market (and the game itself) by giving them an access point or otherwise encourage more activity and demand for real products.

I take it you've never receievd a velator or ran through the career agents otherwise you're going to be insanely mad. There are no levels of shuttles, a shuttle is a shuttle is a shuttle. Although a rookie ship is a shuttle with guns. A cruiser has varying levels and a 'civilian' class would really add a lighter element alongside the heavier elements. I wonder how many people don't subscribe after their trial because to do anything that the game takes longer (and seems to be advertised as such) and is also restricted to after the trial.

Do you have anything better or do you think disrupting the game mechanics is more preferable than to having throwaway ships and modules for people?
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-12-25 21:07:55 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:


That was the point.

How is the game accessible - and one of the main points of the game - to new players when the only way to really engage it is after 3 months or 6 months when you have proper specialisations or economy to play the game? The major problem with 'player-ran' economies or indeed the 'free market' concept as a whole is that eventually it becomes an exclusive arena with very little accessibility. The 'civilian class' ship idea is really to get the players into the market (and the game itself) by giving them an access point or otherwise encourage more activity and demand for real products.

I take it you've never receievd a velator or ran through the career agents otherwise you're going to be insanely mad. There are no levels of shuttles, a shuttle is a shuttle is a shuttle. Although a rookie ship is a shuttle with guns. A cruiser has varying levels and a 'civilian' class would really add a lighter element alongside the heavier elements. I wonder how many people don't subscribe after their trial because to do anything that the game takes longer (and seems to be advertised as such) and is also restricted to after the trial.


You do realize people run out and PvP in ships that cost less than a a mil totally fit, mere hours after starting the game and joining up with say Brave Newbies?

3-6 months? Where are you getting these numbers.

PvP can start with t1 frigs and just work up with there, there is no such thing as a minimum skill cap once you spend the few hours to train t1 mwd's and points.
Bob Maths
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-12-25 21:21:43 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:


That was the point.

How is the game accessible - and one of the main points of the game - to new players when the only way to really engage it is after 3 months or 6 months when you have proper specialisations or economy to play the game? The major problem with 'player-ran' economies or indeed the 'free market' concept as a whole is that eventually it becomes an exclusive arena with very little accessibility. The 'civilian class' ship idea is really to get the players into the market (and the game itself) by giving them an access point or otherwise encourage more activity and demand for real products.

I take it you've never receievd a velator or ran through the career agents otherwise you're going to be insanely mad. There are no levels of shuttles, a shuttle is a shuttle is a shuttle. Although a rookie ship is a shuttle with guns. A cruiser has varying levels and a 'civilian' class would really add a lighter element alongside the heavier elements. I wonder how many people don't subscribe after their trial because to do anything that the game takes longer (and seems to be advertised as such) and is also restricted to after the trial.


You do realize people run out and PvP in ships that cost less than a a mil totally fit, mere hours after starting the game and joining up with say Brave Newbies?

3-6 months? Where are you getting these numbers.

PvP can start with t1 frigs and just work up with there, there is no such thing as a minimum skill cap once you spend the few hours to train t1 mwd's and points.


Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#25 - 2014-12-25 21:46:53 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.
Bob Maths
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-12-25 22:29:31 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#27 - 2014-12-25 22:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
James Zimmer wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
James Zimmer wrote:
IMHO.

Your welcome to your opinion. Most people would even agree with it.

But your proposal is like fixing peeling paint on your home by burning the house to the ground.



And yes, Arty nado vs close range PVP Ishtar should be a one sided rout. If you made no preparation to avoid such an event (say wcs or fitted ecm) and got caught before you can get back to gate or warp away, I see no reason to give you a chance to get away free.

In your spool up/delayed warp drive proposal were you somehow imagining that a 600+ DPS ship would somehow fail to kill a paper tanked Nado in the time it took to get into warp while scammed?


Get a scouting alt. Get friends to scout you, watch the killboards for yourtravel systems, pay someone to move your ship, buy a new ship at your destination.

Facetanking a travel route then expecting the game to give you a chance for survival when you facecheck a gatecamp in a non cloaky, non agile paper tanked ship is expecting absolutely silly things.


Still -1.


I agree that the Ishtar should beat me in this situation, but the problem is, it doesn't. It doesn't even have a chance. I can MWD/cloak forever, and he will never catch me. That mechanic is overpowered.

I'm not super familiar with Ishtars (I just knew enough to know that's a fight I couldn't win) but if what you're saying is correct about 600+ DPS, I agree 100%. It should rip through a paper-tank Tornado before it can warp off. However, there are other ways to fit a Tornado, and if I put a fat buffer tank, or some resists and an ASB on it (which it can certainly support), I think I should have the potential to get away. Right now, I might as well do a paper thin tank, because thin or fat, I'll either not take a single shot, or I'm dead, there is no middle ground.

I disagree that other modules like warp core stabs (or MWDs/cloaks for that matter) should be necessary to move combat ships around in most cases, because it encourages a distinction between travel-fitting and combat-fitting, which, in my opinion, is lame and discourages PVP.


This is an issue I have noticed. The optimal fit for almost anything other than combat PvP will result in you not having a chance at combat PvP.

Now, that isn't to say you are helpless against other players. You have plenty of options for running away and hiding, but you don't have an option for fighting unless you want to gimp your fit. So its best to just run away.

I don't see it changing, but I don't think its a good thing either.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#28 - 2014-12-25 22:44:00 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?

Because either you are only getting beaten down or disposable ships are as powerful are normal ships and crash all the markets as a result.
Bob Maths
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-12-25 22:49:20 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?

Because either you are only getting beaten down or disposable ships are as powerful are normal ships and crash all the markets as a result.


Where are we talking about? With new players? Who are they fighting? New players? Maybe they'll have fun without losing too much ISK after that, they may start looking at better ships with bonuses.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-12-25 22:54:15 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?

Because either you are only getting beaten down or disposable ships are as powerful are normal ships and crash all the markets as a result.


Where are we talking about? With new players? Who are they fighting? New players? Maybe they'll have fun without losing too much ISK after that, they may start looking at better ships with bonuses.


I was not aware we segregated new players in their own area until their reached a certain point, before allowing them into the wide EVE universe.

New players fight new players, new players fight semi-new players, new players fight old players, new players fight bittervets.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-12-25 22:57:01 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?



Because you're not going to learn anything in something so heavily compromised?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#32 - 2014-12-25 23:18:31 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Bob Maths wrote:
Cost scales quickly with the heavier classes, also the lack of impact to newer players would make engagements more likely and increase the interest in the game.
Or the lack of impact would bore them. EvE doesn't need mass appeal and likely would push more people out by going for it than it would pick up.


Why would I quit after learning how to PVP in disposable ships?


Because you're not going to learn anything in something so heavily compromised?

^^
This.

It is the same way one will not learn how to "truly PvP" by doing duels all the time. Because the tactics and fits required to win in a duel or win "in the wild" are very different.


Also... Maths... you are touching on a fundamental cornerstone of EVE: losing is supposed to hurt.

How did you Veterans start?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2014-12-26 01:04:52 UTC
Math you try to present free ships as an alternative for ppl to pew in then try to argue they are so worthless only noobs will fight in them. Either the ships are powerful enough to be broken, or they are so weak they teach you nothing. So what would be the point in the first place?

Its not that long to train into a semi-competent cruiser and they can be cheap to buy (or free in the right corp). But at least your flying the same ship as everyone else and when you lose it, it matters. its a visceral experience, an adrenaline run unlike any other PvP in any game. One you're better off experiencing early on instead of familiarising yourself with 'free' PvP first and then getting too comfortable with it to ever actually buy a ship.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-26 17:42:07 UTC
First off, thanks for everyone who joined in the discussion, that's really what I wanted: A discussion on how to make the game better.

The issue of making the game accessible to new players is a huge one, one that CCP is very interested in. I agree that seeding newb PVP ships would be a bad idea, however, I understand the frustration of losing a bunch of ships and not being able to afford to replace them.

Ultimately, this is an economics problem. There are a ton of ways to make money in this game: You can rat or mine in belts, you can explore, you can grind missions, you can play the markets, manufacture stuff, PI etc. The problem is that, in highsec in particular (where most of the newbs play, at least for a while), the market is absolutely flooded, and as a result, the relative value of basic items is extremely low. This may sound like a great thing for new players, but they don't even have the wealth to buy cheap stuff, or the means to produce enough volume to make significant amounts of money, which leads to the key problem: The ability to make money in high sec is too strongly biased towards highly specialized players with lots of SP. In traditional economics, I'm saying there's no middle class. How can a brand new player who's experimenting with the game make any money mining in a Venture when he's competing with people who are multi-boxing 5 Skiffs with Orca boosts in characters that never wasted a second on anything but mining-related skills? There is so much Veldspar on the market that nobody is willing to pay much for his measly 5000m3.

What could CCP do about this? Make it more difficult to make a ton of money multi-boxing in high. They either increase the amount of work it takes to multi-box (I.E. making asteroids in high very small), or increase the risk of using alts to make ISK (I.E. make high-sec belt rats stronger and mining ships weaker). In many ways, wormhole space (which is where I make most of my money), is a great example of where a thriving middle class lives. There are certainly advantages to having a lot of skill points, but when it comes to basic stuff, like gas mining or relic/data site running, new players and experienced players are almost on an even footing. The result? With a little bit of guidance from older players, and few ships lost in the learning curve, a player with a week or two of skills can consistently make 50 mil an hour in wormholes, and only lose ships on occasion.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#35 - 2014-12-26 18:46:03 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:
The issue of making the game accessible to new players is a huge one, one that CCP is very interested in. I agree that seeding newb PVP ships would be a bad idea, however, I understand the frustration of losing a bunch of ships and not being able to afford to replace them.

My general advice to newbies in this regard is this;

Attach yourself to a veteran (or group of them) and act as their "support."

Newbies who find themselves in a "good group" (which, to be fair, is a bit daunting and easier said than done) tend to be showered with free stuff.
During my first few months of playing I was given stacks of Rifters and Incursus and told to fit them up (using whatever I could find/afford) and use them.

I've done the same thing to rookies that I have taken under my wing.


James Zimmer wrote:
How can a brand new player who's experimenting with the game make any money mining in a Venture when he's competing with people who are multi-boxing 5 Skiffs with Orca boosts in characters that never wasted a second on anything but mining-related skills? There is so much Veldspar on the market that nobody is willing to pay much for his measly 5000m3.

Well, of course a single newbie mining by him/herself is going to get less ISK for his/her efforts than a crew of five with mining link support.

Join a group. Learn how to be more efficient. Share in the wealth.

James Zimmer wrote:
What could CCP do about this? Make it more difficult to make a ton of money multi-boxing in high.

Using single commands to operate multi-boxing setups are set to be banned on the 1st of January. So there is that.

But you also have to understand something; a group of 5 people working together is mechanically no different from 5 separate players operating solo.
As far as the server is concerned... the only things that differentiates them is a "flag" that says they are in a fleet.

So of course groups of "solo players" are going to get more results than a "true solo players."

How did you Veterans start?
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-12-26 19:58:45 UTC
Lowsec or the game as a whole needs

1. No gate guns
2. Warp bubbles
3. Skill point loss, still a stupid thing to remove on CCP's part. Learn from your mistakes and make it very costly
4. Random 50km land on grid and appearing in system.
5. No MWD, no WTZ book mark. AB is ok.
6. Warp drive spool up, like measured in enough time for a frig to fly 50km and point a BS. BS can lock and shoot the frig as its incomming
7. Combined with 3-6, you got risk. Just like everybody wants, and its costly. Very costly, like real life and with something you cannot replace....the time from the skill points lost, not disposable ships. The rest of the points, dragging people into bubbles or gate guns...encourages use of bubbles and ambushes Twisted


Will never happen, cause humans are p*ssies that can't take serious loss that isn't replaceable with disposable ships (WTF? Thought this wasn't a respawn game...oh wait, it is....to easy to replace cheap frigs and cruisers while everyone screams nerf caps and battleships are just relics of a bygone era). Even bad azz CODE needs to hide behind CONCORD, yet there is no serious consequences like massive tax increase for low security status or CONCORD podding players. Game is just too soft for the hardcore Roll
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-12-26 20:03:45 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Lowsec or the game as a whole needs

1. No gate guns
2. Warp bubbles
3. Skill point loss, still a stupid thing to remove on CCP's part. Learn from your mistakes and make it very costly
4. Random 50km land on grid and appearing in system.
5. No MWD, no WTZ book mark. AB is ok.
6. Warp drive spool up, like measured in enough time for a frig to fly 50km and point a BS. BS can lock and shoot the frig as its incomming
7. Combined with 3-6, you got risk. Just like everybody wants, and its costly. Very costly, like real life and with something you cannot replace....the time from the skill points lost, not disposable ships. The rest of the points, dragging people into bubbles or gate guns...encourages use of bubbles and ambushes Twisted


Will never happen, cause humans are p*ssies that can't take serious loss that isn't replaceable with disposable ships (WTF? Thought this wasn't a respawn game...oh wait, it is....to easy to replace cheap frigs and cruisers while everyone screams nerf caps and battleships are just relics of a bygone era). Even bad azz CODE needs to hide behind CONCORD, yet there is no serious consequences like massive tax increase for low security status or CONCORD podding players. Game is just too soft for the hardcore Roll


Or we could not. All of those ideas were removed for very good reasons. Just because you think that the game is not "hardocre" enough without them doesn't make them good ideas.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2014-12-26 20:09:08 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Lowsec or the game as a whole needs

1. No gate guns
2. Warp bubbles
3. Skill point loss, still a stupid thing to remove on CCP's part. Learn from your mistakes and make it very costly
4. Random 50km land on grid and appearing in system.
5. No MWD, no WTZ book mark. AB is ok.
6. Warp drive spool up, like measured in enough time for a frig to fly 50km and point a BS. BS can lock and shoot the frig as its incomming
7. Combined with 3-6, you got risk. Just like everybody wants, and its costly. Very costly, like real life and with something you cannot replace....the time from the skill points lost, not disposable ships. The rest of the points, dragging people into bubbles or gate guns...encourages use of bubbles and ambushes Twisted


Will never happen, cause humans are p*ssies that can't take serious loss that isn't replaceable with disposable ships (WTF? Thought this wasn't a respawn game...oh wait, it is....to easy to replace cheap frigs and cruisers while everyone screams nerf caps and battleships are just relics of a bygone era). Even bad azz CODE needs to hide behind CONCORD, yet there is no serious consequences like massive tax increase for low security status or CONCORD podding players. Game is just too soft for the hardcore Roll



'people aren't hardcore enough!!1', said the NPC corp forum alt...
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-12-26 22:46:37 UTC
I really don't see what the issue with one ship being better at some tasks than others is. Would you have come back to post here if a assault frigate had jumped through a gate you were perched on and you one shot him? Arty tornados are a pretty binary ship to choose for pvp- they either let you win in certain situations or they lose, but what they do they do very, very well and with specialization comes drawbacks, which points back to the binary nature of the arty tornado.

In any event I don't think that the changes you propose would not help encourage fights; they'd probably make it easier for people to avoid them. I think that encouraging fights really boils down to getting people that want to fight to get together and there isn't a lot that CCP can do that they haven't already done on this front. They've already added what basically amounts to a thunderdome for WH players, increased the number of K-K wormholes, given us t3 destroyers with a cpu reduction to scan probe launchers, reduced the ability of powerblocks to escalate with capitals, improved scanning, added rewards for lowsec players, improved the expedition system, improved the smaller subcaps to the point where theres a reason to fly almost all of them, and given us industry improvements allowing us to produce the ships we love to blow up.

Everything else boils down to metagaming and what people want out of their sandbox experience. People who want to fight do, and create organizations based on it. RvB is a good example of this. Brave newbies moved to nullsec and people have flocked to catch to help them or blow them up. CODE and highsec wardec corps are shaking things up in high, E-Uni still has a fantastic presense, NC. and BL have been trying to poke the bear with CFC. If you want to fight, find a group of like minded people and just do it.

I'm not trying to say everything is balanced or perfect, there are some problems out there, but you can still go out and have fun right now without imposing artificial systems on players.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-12-26 23:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: James Zimmer
Bullet Therapist wrote:
I'm not trying to say everything is balanced or perfect, there are some problems out there, but you can still go out and have fun right now without imposing artificial systems on players.


And I do have fun! I haven't killed anyone with that Tornado yet, or died in it for that matter, but I've tried and one of those things is in the works soon. I also plan to get back into small gang PvP in the near future as well.

Everything in this game is artificial, it's a game, and CCP even put this entire section of the forum online to hear what players want to see changed in the game. I don't like gimping ships just to travel with them. If travel in low is a freebie (as it is now), maybe we should make it a freebie without MWD/cloak, like super-strong gate guns, so people don't have to change fittings all the time. On the flip side, maybe it shouldn't be a freebie.
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