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Dev blog: Industry & Teams - The Removal of Teams

First post
Author
Quadima
HyperDreams Studios
#161 - 2014-12-24 06:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Quadima
The reason why teams suck so bad and are not being uses is actually very simple:

TINY itsy-bitsy bonuses!

0.5% reduction to bla bla bla ...
1% less time to.... bla bla....

REALLY ?

Zero. Point. Five. Percent ?

--
People want stuff they pay for to be significant... as in, IT MATTERS.

When you learn a skill that gives you 5 x 5% increased damage, that's 25% extra damage. You actually FEEL that. It makes you more powerful than the other guy that doesn't have it trained, and you have a chance to beat him. Your investment in time to train that pays of...
The 10% reduction to costs or 20% reduction in time for blueprints also are significant, they have an effect that you can actually notice/feel/profit from.

But 0.5 or 1% from a "team" ? ( While it adds significant cost to the operation itself, as the team's salary... )
You simply don't give a fock under these conditions !

Yea, and those 5% teams are so rare and expensive that almost nobody has any chance to use them in their own backyard home system. And it's still only a quarter of a "normal" researched blueprint...

--
And you're wonder why people aren't using them... ha ha...
Sky Marshal
Core Industry.
Fraternity.
#162 - 2014-12-24 14:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
Well, the "Teams" will join the long list of the ideas from CCP who sounded great in the theorical plan, but broken once they added it into EVE because of a bad implementation :/

Just a few corrections would be enough to raise the number of players who would use them but CCP decides to remove them... So much time to make a feature and scrap it after four months only, that is sad. They were far more useful than Captain's Quarter...
Erasmus Grant
Industrial Mining and Mayhem
The Initiative.
#163 - 2014-12-24 14:14:23 UTC
I think the removal of the teams are a bit pre-mature. I just started playing back in May right before the industry changes. I got into industry a little, but realize even an industrialist needs teeth. I been specializing in an E-War role, so I can help protect corp assets and members during war time. I ,and Imagine other new players, have not had the time in the game to worry about such a upper tier part of industry. If it is not game breaking you guys should at least give it a year.
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#164 - 2014-12-25 02:36:12 UTC
Quadima wrote:
The reason why teams suck so bad and are not being uses is actually very simple:

TINY itsy-bitsy bonuses!

0.5% reduction to bla bla bla ...
1% less time to.... bla bla....

REALLY ?

Zero. Point. Five. Percent ?
--
And you're wonder why people aren't using them... ha ha...



Actually Teams were what made medium and large advanced ship production profitable enough to care to do it for those industrialists actually running their numbers.
Without teams the Profit per Slot/Hour will go down and the prices will likely not adapt much because those who never did the math will still continue to sell for the same ...
miguel Manjarrez
#165 - 2014-12-25 06:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: miguel Manjarrez
Dear EVE Players and Developers

With the up coming EVE update the EVE Community will gain new levels of gaming experience without question. But with that said one possible and promising aspect of EVE game play might have been over looked by the public. Though not popular or unknown to many of the EVE community. The Factory Work Teams have been given the pick slip. As a industry focus player. I have used Work Teams with many build projects if possible. It is an interesting aspect of EVE game play and has given the game it self in my opinion a face of the industrial side of EVE. Though at this moment many of the current Work Teams are available until their expiration date. The Idea of shorting or and improving build orders in EVE has made the game more interesting and has open the game to many new possible types of gameplay.

So I ask the EVE community to release The Work Teams to the Public. If possible that they could be Bought as for example as a passenger in the market or contracted in contracts from their current employers. That could be rented and transported though space as any market item to work at any station or crop. or faction. As if possible Work Teams could have special Skill Books that Focus on higher Work Team Skills in Player Work Projects Research or use the Player already used or learned skills that might be common to every industrialist that improve Work Team performance in ether Production or Research. Or for extra income Work Teams could be working for the players as a service for the EVE industrial market. If possible make it streamline and not making any addition to a players skill queue and make work teams with industrial invention or blueprints that improve Work Team skills which ever is the case.

If possible Work Teams as a wild card could if used in build Projects and Research with a add twist to the projects of ships equip etc. Unique to the Work team, Project, Player standing and many other factors which could add improvements against certain enemy ships or weapons and in research a higher level of tech or unknown out comes that might surprise inventors in Positive or Negative ways that might increase their use. Or for the extreme a Player Standing with a bought / rented Work Team that has a poor standing with the Player or corp. In which the Projects are now are at risk from sabotage. That might cause differences in time/cost or with small negative aspects during times of Combat with the sabotage Work team Corp or Allies. That might tip combat and or game play. Faction / Corp / Player Work Teams working in opposing faction space doing the same as an focus Team working to sabotage a specific type of enemy faction ship you might want to weaken against your warship / Corp / faction or other areas of interest which ever the reason Work Teams can operate in Eve.

If any or possible a future with Work Teams could ripple threw out the EVE Community and Game. Thank you for any replays neg or pos any feedback any interest that might get a conversation going about Work Teams. I would think if Work Teams have a future to stay in EVE is that at least a special item be made for the Mass firing of the EVE Work Teams made available so at least a few can remember.(Joke?Ugh) Even thought if what is written here the ideas for Work Teams noted or seen by any or none this was an attempt to save the man in the machine.

Thank you EVE Community
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2014-12-25 14:32:22 UTC
reason why I wouldn't use teams?

auction system sucks, coupled with tiny bonuses making it worthless or even an hassle to anything but huge-scale industry.

ok yes I don't do this kind of scale on industry, but probably a huge portion EVE doesn't either, and the ones that do are probably in charge of the main production lines of the bigger alliances, ergo, a tiny fraction.


tbh I would get rid of the auction system, increase the number of teams available, ability to carry them on your cargo holds and each region/empire seeding a specific team specialization.


as it is, they aren't really worth the effort.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

CoffinQueen
The Vendetta Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#167 - 2014-12-26 00:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CoffinQueen
I used teams (saved me about a 100M ISK in materials per 0.5% per runtime of a team) and I think they added a good piece of complexity to the game. It wasnt dangerous for your business to ignore them but they were nice to have. I always payed attention to have a team in my system and I tried to bid other teams working in the department "away" to remote low sec systems where competitors couldnt get them. Profitable and funny :)

I want to point out that a feature which isnt accepted by the major part of the playerhood isnt automatically a bad or unnecessary feature. Out there are games which are, compared to EVE, virtually featureless. Yea I'm looking at all those asian grinder games. If suddenly a few thousand of players from that games would enter EVE and doing nothing else then mh lets say ratting - would that mean everything else is bad because "hardly accepted by the players"?

Please keep EVE complex and even complicated to a certain point. Dont cut everything off which appears to slightly overlapp the perfect form. And especially not after such a short time! Give teams a (longer) chance to prove themself. Alter them - maybe give them a bit more impact on price calculation to force more attention to them.
Leorajev Aubaris
Blue Goat Ltd.
#168 - 2014-12-26 09:41:12 UTC
I just want to add my voice to the choir.
I only do small industry jobs like some ammo or some rigs.
For such things teams are just not fitting. So I could say "get rid of them, I don't need them".
But after reading all those posts from people that actually use them I'm convinced that they are of use.
I don't know the intended use cases but only a small fraction of EVE players do big industry jobs where the mentioned 0.5% make a significant impact.
So as others pointed out: change teams in a kind that makes them useful for small industry also or let them in the game for people that want to go that route.

(But maybe the current implementation was done in a way that makes them hard to maintain. That would be bad for a newly added feature and should cause CCP to rethink their development processes.)
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#169 - 2014-12-26 17:27:10 UTC
Well regardless of what we say, it's all over now, the last team auction expired and there's no more seeded.

--

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#170 - 2014-12-26 18:03:08 UTC
in simplest terms... we knew it was a whack idea, HE refused to listen thought his "vision" and refusal to allow the "perfect crafter" to exist made this decision even worse. ccp really needs to begin listening to their overall playerbase instead of some inner circles that exist.

you need to remove them.. and once again you need to backtrack and correct industry just due to fact you're removing them.

and oh I know its the same ole backpeddling catch phrase "will look into it in the future"... yada, yada, yada.. you implemented something that broke others and that needs to be a top priority..

Peter VonThal
Raygun Technologies
#171 - 2014-12-26 22:45:04 UTC
I still find it hard to believe that you guys would just remove teams only because of low usage when you admit that industry won't get another pass for quite a while. I have to think there is something more to it, or should I just question the decision making?
Ducian
Zero Effect Industries
#172 - 2014-12-27 20:19:35 UTC
Hi,

I've been doing a bit of thinking about Industry Teams and the sort of things that I think that they should be able to do. As a concept I really like the idea of Industry Teams and I largely agree with CCP's attitude towards them - perhaps they should leave them in the game until they have a viable replacement. - but that's not the point of this post.

I think that I would like to see team become more complicated than they are at the moment but as a result of this increase they could also add a whole new aspect to industry in EVE. Here are my ideas, feel free to rip them to shreds or suggest alterations etc. :)

Rather than having teams that are bid on and only exist for a short time, teams should be something that a character can build up and train to make them more effective at particular areas of industry.

The existing skill Research Project Management could be used to give characters access to building an Industry Team, one team member slot per level in the skill (perhaps another skill to allow a second team?).

Each team member would have a specific set of benefits that can be applied to any industry job started by the character that runs the team. Team member benefits stack with diminishing returns so teams can be built that are good at specific types of industry (hulls, tech 3, ammo etc) or to construct a more general team.

It should be possible to improve team members by training them (requiring the player to use an account training queue to improve the team member).

I'd like to see some sort of interesting way of acquiring team members, and depending on the risk involved the starting quality of the team member would increase. Perhaps a few mission arcs - high sec ones giving basic team members, low/null giving better team members...maybe something from Faction Warfare...I dunno :)

Team members could also have contracts bought and sold on the market so you could train up team members to sell on to other players or buy ones that you need to complete your team fit.

Just a few ideas, what do people think?

Cheers - Ducian

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#173 - 2014-12-28 09:17:18 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
in simplest terms... we knew it was a whack idea, HE refused to listen thought his "vision" and refusal to allow the "perfect crafter" to exist made this decision even worse. ccp really needs to begin listening to their overall playerbase instead of some inner circles that exist.

you need to remove them.. and once again you need to backtrack and correct industry just due to fact you're removing them.

and oh I know its the same ole backpeddling catch phrase "will look into it in the future"... yada, yada, yada.. you implemented something that broke others and that needs to be a top priority..




I have to agree 100%.

The same goes for refining/reprocessing. A lot of folks have trained their skills to level 5 so they could achieve the best refining possible, only for the "change" to come and knock it down to a max of 75%.

That's just lousy to do that to the player base.

Honestly, I've grown tired of "we'll look into it" and then in a couple weeks it becomes forgotten.


Teams are a good idea, but the auction system screwed it up. I say leave teams in and drop the auction system, and base the team costs off the amount of industry in the system where you're actually doing that specific industry.
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#174 - 2014-12-28 21:38:52 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
The loss in potential ME gains (for those who did use teams), will be monitored, but we expect the increased cost to be passed on to the buyer and not necessarily to eat into margins more.

So, you're saying that the removal of the teams which nobody used, will cause the prices to rise?

Wow. Just wow. Genuinely, that is amazing.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#175 - 2014-12-28 21:44:37 UTC
Fifth Blade wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
The loss in potential ME gains (for those who did use teams), will be monitored, but we expect the increased cost to be passed on to the buyer and not necessarily to eat into margins more.

So, you're saying that the removal of the teams which nobody used, will cause the prices to rise?

Wow. Just wow. Genuinely, that is amazing.



I honestly kicked several puppies when he said that.. proves even further how they do not know how indy is played.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#176 - 2014-12-29 15:31:33 UTC
Another thought I just had on this matter...

How many pilots actively use the Hacking Minigame (the guys that actually use it often, not like once every 3 months) compared to the number of accounts in Eve? How does this number compare to player use of Industry Teams?

Also compare this to how many actively use Captains Quarters? That was a pretty heavy workload and investment that went nowhere. At least Industry Teams served a small purpose and actually changed how a few people played the game.

So if the comparative use of either Hacking or CQ is near the same or below the use of Teams, then by reason you should remove those features as well.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#177 - 2014-12-29 15:48:04 UTC
And I just went through again to make sure I had my numbers/facts right:

Thread was started 12/17:

CCP Gargant wrote:
Give us your feedback and tell us what you think.

First actual dev response was 12/18 telling us they think any increase in cost from removing teams will be passed on to buyers (same thing they said when they neutered T2 invention) instead of actually acknowledging or responding to feedback.

And now, as of 12/29, no additional dev posts have been made, teams are now gone from the game.

Essentially CCP just said "Yep, really appreciated and took to heart all of your feedback, but we are just going to let the thread die and ignore anything you might have said or any legit questions or concerns you raised and do what we said in the first place because reasons. Jokes on you for getting trolled into responding to another feedback thread and wasting hours of your time putting together thought out responses and reading what everyone else had to say."

How many more of these feedback requests threads should one respond to actually expecting feedback to be acknowledged before being considered 200% crazy and out of your mind? I don't want to stop giving feedback on the off chance it will actually be read, but does that make us lunatics for continuing to think anything any of us says actually makes a difference?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#178 - 2014-12-29 15:57:24 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
And I just went through again to make sure I had my numbers/facts right:

Thread was started 12/17:

Remember also this is the second feedback thread; the first didn't fare any better either.

--

John Podiene
Fist Of The Red Dragon
#179 - 2015-01-01 01:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: John Podiene
I'll go out on a limb and say that the removal of teams was planned from the get go. This move makes sense if you consider the line of thought that ccp wanted to institute a major isk sink and didn't want to have an irate player base, so they introduce the "Teams" as an balance to said isk sink, all under the cover of "industry re-balancing" , only to remove the "teams" part of the equation at an arbitrary date in the future. why woul ccp do this you ask? it's simple, ccp wants the amount of isk in the form of profit to decline so to keep indy players from being able to afford plexes at in-game prices, in other words they want you to pay real money for plex's instead of isk. This makes sense when you combine it with the introduction of features like multi-character training, face re-sculpting and the vanity items requiring aurum which is converted from plex's or uses the plex itself... this all leads me to the conclusion that ccp is purposely trying to drive up plex prices while at the same time trying to lower the amount of isk being made in the game so that it increases their bottom line. That's just my .02 isk. Just fyi when i started in 2011 plex's were only around 350 mil a pop at jita... now they're around 800 -900 mil a pop, amazing how those prices climb....
Xela Kcaneoh
The Pirates Of Orion
#180 - 2015-01-02 01:57:48 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Honestly, I've grown tired of "we'll look into it" and then in a couple weeks it becomes forgotten.

That is what CCP's 6-week release schedule is all about.

Seagull craps on everything.