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Crime & Punishment

 
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Announcement From Gorila

First post First post
Author
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#21 - 2014-12-25 04:41:56 UTC
You're disappointed with the real life death threats you're recieveing? I had a CODE pilot fly through my highsec system before with the title, Tear Collector. Now that tells me you're expecting people to react violently when you gank them and from succesful ganks I've seen happen in my mining system, you actively poke fun at the person who dies.

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people. You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds. What do you expect is going to happen? Not everyone can shrug off something like that. Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.

I can never take a bunch of self obessed bunch of violence inducing fools like CODE seriously. Hell even after I provided a reasonable response to a thread CODE was taking part in you guys just started trolling and then wardecced my alliance with unrealistic demands.

Awaiting your response.

Alastair

I discourage running with scissors.

CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#22 - 2014-12-25 04:44:33 UTC
I had a fantastic conversation with him today on coms.

I look forward for this fruitful relationship and the good times that will be had.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate

Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#23 - 2014-12-25 04:47:52 UTC
Welcome to the team. I have enjoyed your blog in the past and am glad you have decided to join us.

I agree with you on the AG community being incredibly toxic. I tried hanging out in the channel a few times on an alt and quit because it was just too sad to read..
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#24 - 2014-12-25 04:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
Gorila

I admired what you and some others in the AG were doing. You were one of those who inspired me to try and make a difference in getting people to react to what CODE. and others were doing. Being a White Knight was good for the game, good for content too. And it really was inspirational. Epic good vs/ evil stuff is always a good story.

I agree that getting people (miners and haulers mostly) involved in the game is nearly futile. What I believe you have failed to realize is that the deck is stacked in favor of the bad guy. Being the good guy is the longer road in this game. CODE. hasn't just RP'd the bad-guy role, they have seriously demoralized being the good guy into space dust.

I find that, surprisingly, Marmites seem to be emerging as the white knights since Tora's declaration against CODE. And I support that fully, as hisec needs to see a shifting balance between good/evil to maintain a healthy interest. Let ol "blood & feathers" Belvar rot. He's only interested in his own little narcissistic world anyway.

I wish you well in your new path, but I disagree with your choice. Eve just lost a change for good.


In theory, the deck is stacked towards the miners and haulers. The game mechanics favor a competent miner over a competent ganker.

However, tons of miners and haulers act lazy, greedy or dumb, which is why we exist in the first place.
hellyeaz
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#25 - 2014-12-25 05:44:28 UTC
Gorila Vengaza wrote:

Could I interest you in buying a mining permit? they are only 10 mill ISK a year.
Big smile



Feels good to finally say that yea?
Welcome to the light.
may you sacrifice many cats for the CODE.
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-12-25 05:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ForTheEmpire2014
edit.retracted
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#27 - 2014-12-25 06:01:14 UTC
Zepher Helen Hawat wrote:
And here I thought that "playing the villain" was just another part of EVE? Veers would have us all holding hands running Incursions.Roll

I also have to disagree with the very large brush he paints CODE or anyone that agrees with CODE. Once again he's takes ONE incident, a incident that involved a few people, an incident that has been dealt with by CCP MONTHS ago, an incident that the "victim" even stated that he over reacted too, and paints a whole swath of people with false claims and insults. I happen to agree with CODE, I happen to like talking to a few members of CODE. Does that make me a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency? Pretty ballsy statement coming from the likes of you.

Veers claims that CODE is telling people how too play, yet he does the same thing. Get off the soapbox lad. The more you yap, the more players join CODE....

hmmm, maybe you are an alt of James315.Shocked That would make more sense in a twisted sort of way, because I can't believe someone is that obtuse.


No...if you want to play the villain go do it in low/null, or do it in highsec by hitting high value ships for isk. Don't sit around blowing up helpless noobs and empty ships for rage and tears. It's...pathetic.

This one incident (the bonus rooms), was a key incident, and the leader of the group has vocally defended the practice. Also, the entire gameplay of the group (seeking rage and tears) resembles that incident. And yes, if you support people who make it their goal to induce real life emotional rage and sadness of people, that does not speak well of your moral values.

I'm not telling anyone how to play. Want conflict? You got it in low/null. Want piracy? Can do it in low or hit high value targets in high. Want to blow up people just to elicit rage and tears and humiliate them on your website? Find a different game.
Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-12-25 06:23:19 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


As far as "not being safe" or "having fun," consider the real life equivalent of CODE. Someone goes to a beach and spends hours constructing a beautiful sandcastle. A second person arrives and promptly destroys said sandcastle to elicit rage and tears. Guy 2 is having a lot more fun, and demonstrating that sand on the beach is a public good that cannot be acquired. So what? Guy 2 is still a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency. That you have the right to do something does not make it the right thing to do.

I would rather cast my lot with those who play the game to find constructive enjoyment in it, and not simply take pleasure from the rage and tears of others. Highsec suicide ganking contributes virtually nothing to the game. Enough said.


Isnt this no different than walking across a beach, admiring the view, when some guy runs up and shoots you in the head? Surely that is an immoral, indecent thing to do, but yet this happens all the time in video games. It doesnt matter if you play Call of Duty for the graphics, if you join a multiplayer game, you will still be shot in the head by another player.

Is it a psychopathic, evil, immoral, indecent thing to shoot someone in the head, just because they are not on your team, in real life? Yes. Is it wrong to do it in a video game that is designed so that you are not only allowed to, but encouraged to do so? Of course not.

Video games are not real life. You dont go up to people and shoot them in real life. You dont grief and scam people in real life. And yet, this is all perfectly acceptable in video games, where the game is designed to accommodate this sort of behavior.

If you suck at a video game, or dont like an aspect, of course youre going to be miserable. The guy who always goes 0-30-0 in Dota 2 and loses his matches, will be miserable. Clearly this game isnt for him. If you cant handle a scam, if you cant handle a loss, if you cant handle a gank, this game is not for you. If you want to play a game where your ship will never be destroyed, your assets never taken away, Maybe Star Trek Online would be better suited for you.
412nv Yaken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-12-25 06:38:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Note...non-consensual PvP is not banned in RL. The police will not arrest you for knocking over someone else's sandcastle. The police will not arrest you for cutting in line in the supermarket. The police will not arrest you for routinely lying to friends and family. Morality does not depend on the physical impossibility of doing something....it depends on the CHOICES you make and your attempt to do the right thing.


And the right thing is killing spaceships and engaging people in the game they should be playing.

We win again

A True Champion of High Security Space

Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2014-12-25 06:39:57 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


No...if you want to play the villain go do it in low/null, or do it in highsec by hitting high value ships for isk. Don't sit around blowing up helpless noobs and empty ships for rage and tears. It's...pathetic.


I shoot industrials in lowsec/nullsec just the same. I dont know if they are full to the brim with 10 billion isk loot, or if they are empty, but i kill them nonetheless. I dont know if they are noobs, but i still kill them. Sometimes, i get rage mails and tears. But its still part of the game.
Quote:

This one incident (the bonus rooms), was a key incident, and the leader of the group has vocally defended the practice. Also, the entire gameplay of the group (seeking rage and tears) resembles that incident. And yes, if you support people who make it their goal to induce real life emotional rage and sadness of people, that does not speak well of your moral values.


I think it takes a truly disturbed mind for someone to rage as loudly, as heavily, and as destructively as some people ive seen who lost matches in other video games. We have tons of "WoW Freakout" videos out there, where most of us would consider this a disturbed person who needs mental help.

But does a player who kills another player in Call of Duty, know how his opponent will react to the loss? Of course not. He may be normal, and just shrug it off. Or he may be insane and throw his keyboard at the monitor. But if he does react violently, is it the fault of the person who killed him, though? Of course not, even if he jeers or taunts or boasts about it afterwards.

People dont make us angry. We choose to be angry. We choose to lose control. Those who choose to get angry, simply have less control over their emotions. And thats no ones fault but their own. You can always choose to walk away, choose to ignore, or choose to type a huge angry rant full of death threats.

Quote:

I'm not telling anyone how to play. Want conflict? You got it in low/null. Want piracy? Can do it in low or hit high value targets in high. Want to blow up people just to elicit rage and tears and humiliate them on your website? Find a different game.


What if someone just want to green up their killboard? Get as many kills as they can? Get as many expensive kills as they can? Why should some targets be safe, where others are acceptable to gank? Pods are certainly the easiest target, and at the same time have the potential to provide the most expensive KMs. Why should they be exempt? Why should some ships be 100% safe to travel in?

Sounds like youre dictating how we should play the game.
Rein Chelien
Nova Express
Central Omni Galactic Group
#31 - 2014-12-25 08:40:55 UTC
Welcome Gotila.

Veers, when you play Catan, do you always complain so lousy when someone puts the robber on one of your tiles? Do you emphatically insist that the robber is immoral and people who role a 7 are psychopaths?

You know what that sort of behavior reminds me of? A child. Children constantly seek to change the rules of the games they play to eliminate the possibility of a setback through rule mongering as opposed to developing new skills and perspectives. What you are asking for is for two games to be connected by jump gates: a walled community where everything is bright and shiny called highsec and an area where people are banished to called low/null who don't see fit to play by your entirely made up "rules."

If that's what you really want, then find people who think like you and go build that game. Wait. They already did. It's called Legos.
Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
#32 - 2014-12-25 08:55:22 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Zepher Helen Hawat wrote:
And here I thought that "playing the villain" was just another part of EVE? Veers would have us all holding hands running Incursions.Roll

I also have to disagree with the very large brush he paints CODE or anyone that agrees with CODE. Once again he's takes ONE incident, a incident that involved a few people, an incident that has been dealt with by CCP MONTHS ago, an incident that the "victim" even stated that he over reacted too, and paints a whole swath of people with false claims and insults. I happen to agree with CODE, I happen to like talking to a few members of CODE. Does that make me a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency? Pretty ballsy statement coming from the likes of you.

Veers claims that CODE is telling people how too play, yet he does the same thing. Get off the soapbox lad. The more you yap, the more players join CODE....

hmmm, maybe you are an alt of James315.Shocked That would make more sense in a twisted sort of way, because I can't believe someone is that obtuse.


No...if you want to play the villain go do it in low/null, or do it in highsec by hitting high value ships for isk. Don't sit around blowing up helpless noobs and empty ships for rage and tears. It's...pathetic.

This one incident (the bonus rooms), was a key incident, and the leader of the group has vocally defended the practice. Also, the entire gameplay of the group (seeking rage and tears) resembles that incident. And yes, if you support people who make it their goal to induce real life emotional rage and sadness of people, that does not speak well of your moral values.

I'm not telling anyone how to play. Want conflict? You got it in low/null. Want piracy? Can do it in low or hit high value targets in high. Want to blow up people just to elicit rage and tears and humiliate them on your website? Find a different game.


Veers, making comparisons to rl is just ludicrous. This is a game...nothing more. If you allow people to determine your rl feelings and reactions over a game, perhaps you shouldn't be playing it. I don't direct that to you personally, but to anyone in general that gets "hurt" in a game consisting of pixels and code. You play a game to have fun, if you're not having fun...play something else instead of whining about how it's "not fair". Stop saying to "go to low or null" because people want to be pirates. They have every right to do it in high sec. Why don't you move to low or null....you don't because you don't want to...nor do many of the pirates you complain about. You have to realize Code is not your enemy, they are your opponent in a game.

For god's sake get off the whole bonus room thing already..it's over and done. Can't you see what the incessant ranting and rhetoric is doing? You lost your greatest asset and it will continue to happen until you and others realize that in the end, this is just a game. No one gets hurt, no one truly loses anything...and if they do get hurt from a game, perhaps games are not what they should be playing..especially Eve.

With that being said, I hope you have a merry Christmas...after all, we are only the villians in a game, not rl...to assume any different is just ridiculous.Smile

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-12-25 09:49:59 UTC
Gorila Vengaza wrote:
Hmmm Im emotionally unstable because i want to have fun while playing a game?


tsk tsk i did not say that.
For those in doubt:
I think you might be emotionally unstable cause you got riled up so hard on forum discussions that you make a 180 degree turn. Interesting, for me it rises the question if you have ever been a true antiganker or just another code spy.
However, this is not important.

You where a certain antiganker.
Now you are just a random CLOWN, sorry i mean CODE. guy with hardly 4% damage when attacking ships.
Cool
Gorila Vengaza wrote:

Could I interest you in buying a mining permit? they are only 10 mill ISK a year.
Big smile


LOL
*You* sell me a permit?

Sorry, i do not give money to clowns.
Bear

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#34 - 2014-12-25 09:55:09 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
As my new favorite saying goes, "Veers leads to Anger, Anger leads to hate, and Hate, well, Hate leads to the dark side of high sec!"

Now for the more serious part of the post:
Quote:
As far as "not being safe" or "having fun," consider the real life equivalent of CODE. Someone goes to a beach and spends hours constructing a beautiful sandcastle. A second person arrives and promptly destroys said sandcastle to elicit rage and tears. Guy 2 is having a lot more fun, and demonstrating that sand on the beach is a public good that cannot be acquired. So what? Guy 2 is still a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency. That you have the right to do something does not make it the right thing to do.


This is the closest thing to an accurate RL/ganking analogy that I have seen. Its just missing one thing. There's two sandboxes. In one, there's a bunch of people playing tag and kicking sand at each other. In the other there's people building stuff. The miner in question decided to build his sand castle in the sandbox with kids kicking sand at each other instead of building in the one where he would be left alone. He then built a small sandcastle and fell asleep next to it, somehow expecting not to get sand in his mouth.

In case you're wondering, the other sandbox represents any other damn game where non-consensual pvp is banned.


Note...non-consensual PvP is not banned in RL. The police will not arrest you for knocking over someone else's sandcastle. The police will not arrest you for cutting in line in the supermarket. The police will not arrest you for routinely lying to friends and family. Morality does not depend on the physical impossibility of doing something....it depends on the CHOICES you make and your attempt to do the right thing.

Uh, how is this relevant to anything I just said?

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-12-25 10:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Alastair Ormand wrote:
You're disappointed with the real life death threats you're recieveing? I had a CODE pilot fly through my highsec system before with the title, Tear Collector. Now that tells me you're expecting people to react violently when you gank them and from succesful ganks I've seen happen in my mining system, you actively poke fun at the person who dies.

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people. You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds. What do you expect is going to happen? Not everyone can shrug off something like that. Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.

I can never take a bunch of self obessed bunch of violence inducing fools like CODE seriously. Hell even after I provided a reasonable response to a thread CODE was taking part in you guys just started trolling and then wardecced my alliance with unrealistic demands.

Awaiting your response.

Alastair

Welcome to the code world.

You got it just right.
code is fishing for those violent reactions. They even know that but they carry it as excuse before CCP that its not them that are the bad guys, its those other fews who are much much worse because they make RL threats. Even when some of threats are nothing more than emotional outbursts.
However, not CCP and not the other players are so stupid to believe CLOWN.

Hippinse wrote:
Because if it isn't either of those things it seems in very poor taste. Hopefully I'm missing something and am completely wrong in what that sentence seems to say.


Who knows the truth?
I do not.
Still it might be poor taste.
Let me answer code style with a lame excuse:
english is not my first language.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Omar Alharazaad
Nefarious Porpoise
#36 - 2014-12-25 10:13:21 UTC
La Rynx
You are truly inspiring, you know that? You're churlish and relentlessly hostile to levels I've rarely seen before. Even Veers, while wrong minded and stubbornly determined to stand his ground despite being wrong, is still civil more often than not when fighting his hopeless battles. You don't even bother with a pretense of that.

My own playstyle doesn't really touch on ganking, but I think you've inspired me to use the 20 days of second character training CCP gave us for Christmas to train up a catalyst pilot. You know, for reasons.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-12-25 10:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
La Rynx
You are truly inspiring, you know that? You're churlish and relentlessly hostile to levels I've rarely seen before. Even Veers, while wrong minded and stubbornly determined to stand his ground despite being wrong, is still civil more often than not when fighting his hopeless battles. You don't even bother with a pretense of that.

My own playstyle doesn't really touch on ganking, but I think you've inspired me to use the 20 days of second character training CCP gave us for Christmas to train up a catalyst pilot. You know, for reasons.


Bear
Please give your best!
You've got 20 days time to train and test it out...

I think it is funny that now i should be "worse" than Veers.

Back to your catalyst.
I hope you are not disappointed, but i am not against gankers. I despise the bigotry and lies of the Clowns-troupe.
What gets me is, if more experienced guys **** of other players and fish for violent reactions to finaly thow them out of EvE.
If you dislike me for that... well who cares?

CLOWN is full of people trying to f ck others ppls behind the monitor not their alts in game. Thats not playing EvE thats using EvE as a griefing tool. And thats not the meaning of the EvE sandbox.

PS:
I have been hinted by a codie, that not everything about gorila might be "true".

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#38 - 2014-12-25 12:10:01 UTC
Alastair Ormand wrote:

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people.


I don't, they do it themselves. Frequently in local.

Quote:

You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds.


In a PvP game. It is not only expected, but encouraged.


Quote:
Not everyone can shrug off something like that.


Then why are they playing a PvP game?


Quote:

Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.



And you trying to deny people the right to PvP in a PvP game will lead to people quitting from boredom, making our community smaller.

Although only my assertion is in fact backed up with CCP's numbers about retention. The bottom line is that PvE centric playstyles are hurting the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#39 - 2014-12-25 12:25:19 UTC
Alastair Ormand wrote:
You're disappointed with the real life death threats you're recieveing? I had a CODE pilot fly through my highsec system before with the title, Tear Collector. Now that tells me you're expecting people to react violently when you gank them and from succesful ganks I've seen happen in my mining system, you actively poke fun at the person who dies.

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people. You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds. What do you expect is going to happen? Not everyone can shrug off something like that. Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.

I can never take a bunch of self obessed bunch of violence inducing fools like CODE seriously. Hell even after I provided a reasonable response to a thread CODE was taking part in you guys just started trolling and then wardecced my alliance with unrealistic demands.

Awaiting your response.

Alastair
People who call for RL violence against other players over game play, do not have any place in the gaming community. They are bad and trying to turn it around and justify their behaviour, only places you in their camp.

Twisted moral high ground dwellers, should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Astecus
Astral Providence
Astral Battles
#40 - 2014-12-25 12:46:17 UTC
I rarely write on forums, but as the creator of Anti-ganking and Gank-Intel, I should now apologize to the general public for allowing Gorila to be a moderator in these channels. There were clues about his true stance, but I ignored them.

It is now clear that Gorila shares one view with virtually all gankers - they don't mind having fun at the expense of someone else's fun. This is purely selfish and is exactly the opposite of what Anti-ganking is all about.

Gorila Vengaza wrote:
Lately my biggest Issue has been the campaign of RL death threats and accusing people of being sociopaths and psychopaths because of how they play a GAME. It’s something I do NOT agree with and have actively campaigned against since day one. It’s a hate campaign Veers is very vocal about and sadly his sentiments have carried over to the AG channels and I’ve seen many embrace it. I’ve sat back and watched the hate and I do NOT approve.

If someone makes RL threats, you should have cause to petition them. But you use it as an excuse to hit back instead. If you believe people spread hate in the channel, you should contact any mod about it like the MOTD says. Or, in your case, be a decent mod yourself. But you seem to prefer to talk about the hate instead of doing something about it. This makes you look quite similar to those you claim to talk about.

Gorila Vengaza wrote:
I do want to say there ARE some good people in Antiganking regardless of the others and if my actions hurt those people I do apologize.

Do these good people include any of the moderators? Because we spent over a year building a block list of around a thousand troublemaking entities, which you wiped clean. Or maybe one of your newly appointed CODE mods did. There is no easy way to rebuild this list. You apologize, but I'm not really convinced you are sorry.



Now, let me elaborate on what Anti-ganking is all about, since there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding this. Anti-ganking as created by me, is about helping people keep their fun when gankers try to steal it. Anti-ganking is not about revenge or calling gankers bad things. Anti-ganking is about helping others, not take advantage of others. Anti-ganking is about treating others with respect, as opposed to the disrespectful nature of ganking.

Many people seem to be claiming that the channel is toxic and full of hate and stuff, and because the channel will stay public, these things simply can't be avoided entirely. As the huge block list would suggest, we do try to do something about disrespectful behaviour. However, if you don't want to contact mods and show us exactly what you think is toxic or hateful, you yourself end up looking like the very people you call toxic or hateful. I think the last mail I got about issues in the channel was back in august... That mail helped us remove a very disrespectful individual, he's still trying to make me pay. So mailing moderators actually works, unless your motives are selfish and you think you have the right to treat others disrespectfully. In that case, you might get banned instead.

It is possible we should lower the bar about the level of disrespectfulness that gets confronted in the channel, don't hesitate to share any thoughts about this. I'm very happy to listen to any constructive criticism, as I'm far from any expert. I have never managed a channel of this size before.

-Aste

Reloaded Main: Astevon | Creator of the Anti-ganking channel, Anti-ganking.net and AstralServices.net