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Minmatar T2 Changes
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Shivanthar
#21 - 2014-12-23 13:42:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Projectiles are infinitely better than all missiles which aren't light. Trust me.


Correct to the most point until 150km range, where cruise missiles starts to shine :P

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2014-12-23 13:50:21 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Projectiles are infinitely better than all missiles which aren't light. Trust me.


Correct to the most point until 150km range, where cruise missiles starts to shine :P


Past that range stuff warps to 0 on you.
Acel Tokalov
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-12-23 13:50:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I shall reiterate again. It is not that minmatar AC are horrible. They were great until one thing happened. RAILS and Blasters got OVERBUFFED. And they covered COMPLETELY all engagement capabilities of AC. THere is no scenario were an AC boat will not be outdone by rails or Blasters ( blasters already do it all by themselves in 90% of engagement envelope).



THe problem are OVER buffed hybrids with vastly superior gallente platforms due to tiercide being clearly favoring gallente.


JUst check the simple example of hyperion. That had 8 highs 5 mids 6 lows. The same lousy layout as the tempest and suffered as well. Nothing is really done for the tempest. But for the hyperion they went to the level of giving it a 10% DAMAGE bonus per level to drop to 6 turrets and free slots, all that while keeping a powerful repair bonus with 7 lows. While for the tempest.. for some reason, even with players askign for years, it is not doable to buff it anyway. It needs to spend BOTH its bonuses BOTH to even still have LESS damage capability than the hyperion, WAY less whiel fielding a MASSIVELY worse tank.


THe lack of justice of the current game designers when balancing gallente is appalling. All the balancing on the last 2 years have been so heavily biased, between hybrids, drone modules and clearly overpowered gallente hulls, that it is just a JOKE now.


Though it isn't just hybrids, pulse lasers are also significantly stronger than autocannons. With scorch ammo pulse lasers can do significantly more damage with a much larger effective range than barrage, and at short range conflagration allows pulse to perform nearly as well as blasters, while hail manages to do less damage, hurt the already poor tracking even more, and kill their falloff which reduces their effective damage even more.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-12-23 14:00:23 UTC
Yes there is no reason a Mini HAC should have less mids than a Gal T1 attack crusier.


anyway I never got the whole missile kiting meta. yes they can project, however pulling range with missiles is nice. pulling range with guns however is a god damn necessity..... not complaining the game is better for it.

really till the day missiles require more from the player than the use of the F1 key, missiles really should be laughably underwhelming. and bolted to as few hulls as possible.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-12-23 14:56:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Projectiles are infinitely better than all missiles which aren't light. Trust me.


Correct to the most point until 150km range, where cruise missiles starts to shine :P


Past that range stuff warps to 0 on you.


Yup Smile

Even then, sniper guns far outshine them. Travel time is a joke at those ranges.

I'd still rather have bonused projectiles than HAMs because they don't need a support fleet to work and can kill frigates, oh and aren't attached to the slowest hulls on earth.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#26 - 2014-12-23 16:31:10 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Or you could just take your dirty, Caldari tainted missile loving hands off my decent ships.


-1. Missile vagabond concept makes me sad.

while im too sceptical about a missile vaga i belive the ship need serious help
(due to the weapon system isnt good at what the vaga wants to do)

so i'd rather say the state of the vaga makes me sad

on topic:

while i dont like all the ideas theres something off about minmatar ships....
and it doesnt get better.... see recon changes.
(ships keeping that painter boni which is significantly inferrior to the already bonused web on these hulls...&stuff)
Acel Tokalov
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-12-23 16:56:44 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Or you could just take your dirty, Caldari tainted missile loving hands off my decent ships.


-1. Missile vagabond concept makes me sad.

while im too sceptical about a missile vaga i belive the ship need serious help
(due to the weapon system isnt good at what the vaga wants to do)

so i'd rather say the state of the vaga makes me sad

on topic:

while i dont like all the ideas theres something off about minmatar ships....
and it doesnt get better.... see recon changes.
(ships keeping that painter boni which is significantly inferrior to the already bonused web on these hulls...&stuff)


Yeah, I mean I love the Vagabond and I love autocannons, but they really do need to be fixed. The reason that I was suggesting the Thukker line becomes missile is that they are supposed to be the short range, high speed kite ships and when you are focusing on kiting it is also difficult to try and stay in that sweet spot of falloff to actually get reasonable damage out of autocannons. Not to exclude the aforementioned lack of an alternative weapon type for the Minmatar T2 line. The way I was picturing the changes to the Thukker ships to missile boats was something akin to the Mordus Legion ships. Light, short range, high damage, missile ships that specialize in keeping opponents at their comfortable range.
DaeHan Minhyok
Logical Outcomes
#28 - 2014-12-23 17:48:30 UTC
From a lore prospective the minmatar are the fleeing and rebelling slaves of the Amarr, it makes sense that ships used would be stolen and refitted Amarr ships that would armor tank. Since some parts of the caldari helped them, it seems reasonable the minmatar would have picked up some of the tech, thus missiles as well. This is also reflected in the minmatar carrier which gets bonuses to armor and shield rep ammount.

As for missiles, theres the hound, huggin atm rapier in a couple weeks, and a t3 subsystem for the loki.

There may be less duel weapon systems for the minmatar but this is balanced with the duel tanking that allows a healthy number of their ships to use either of the primary defensive systems.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#29 - 2014-12-23 19:07:23 UTC
I think the combined optimal and falloff bonus would solve the range issues on projectiles, but are probably better handled by giving the weapons modules sane stats in the module tieracide incentive. Especially on autocannons, it never makes sense to use the long range ammo, as it is never the highest applied damage at ranges where you still have more than a faint prayer of hitting things.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#30 - 2014-12-23 22:00:20 UTC
I had assumed that the long range ammo was for use in artillery when you were at super long engagement ranges and tracking counted for nothing as angular velocities were tiny.
Dorian qray
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-12-24 16:03:11 UTC
So to be clear you want to stick missile launchers on the prettiest ship in eve , ARE YOU MAD WOMAN Cry
Orange Something
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-12-24 18:01:31 UTC
Acel Tokalov wrote:

First changing the Thukker Mix ships (Jaguar, Vagabond, Panther) into missile ships. Minmatar are currently the only race that doesn't have an alternate T2 weapon type while all the others have their respective turret weapons and drones/missiles.

This is just simply not true. Admitably yes, I see what you're talking about with not switching between missiles and turrets, but only in Assault Frigates and Heavy Assault Cruisers. Minnie ships already have more t1 missile boats than other races, and the alternation on t2 isn't between turrets and missiles for minmatar, it's shield vs armor. Like the Wolf and Jaguar, the Jaguar is sheild tanked and the Wolf is armor tanked, same with the Vagabond and Muininn, and to a lesser extent the Claw vs the Stiletto

And if the problem you're trying to address here involves buffing proj turrets, then why not just do that? Why bring missiles into this at all?


Acel Tokalov wrote:
Though it isn't just hybrids, pulse lasers are also significantly stronger than autocannons. With scorch ammo pulse lasers can do significantly more damage with a much larger effective range than barrage, and at short range conflagration allows pulse to perform nearly as well as blasters, while hail manages to do less damage, hurt the already poor tracking even more, and kill their falloff which reduces their effective damage even more


See that's not the problem with favoring Gallente, the problem there is that hybrids are already powerful, and almost every gallente ship that can use hybrids also uses drones. Gallente ships already bonus hybrids, which are fantastic where they are, as well as drones, which do nothing outside add pure DPS. Not to mention the range and damage on sentry drones.

And when it comes to lasers vs projectiles, the balancing factor is that autocannons and artillery use no capacitor at all. Yes the dps is a lot lower, but you also don't have to take your turret fire into account when considering your capacitor use. There is a good reason Amarr ships have bigger capacitors than Minmatar ships.
Nodire Hermetz
Jump 2 Beacon
Death Legion of Capybaras
#33 - 2014-12-24 22:38:07 UTC
lets CCP fix in first minmatar ship and projectile weapon before anything else

and -10 for a missile vagabond !!!! No , no , no NO !!
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#34 - 2014-12-24 23:18:13 UTC
Acel Tokalov wrote:
Seeing as it is pretty apparent that basically the entire Minmatar combat ship and Projectile lines need to have an overhaul to bring them into balance with the other racial lines I want to suggest a few changes to the Minmatar line.

First changing the Thukker Mix ships (Jaguar, Vagabond, Panther) into missile ships. Minmatar are currently the only race that doesn't have an alternate T2 weapon type while all the others have their respective turret weapons and drones/missiles. Changing Thukker ships to use missiles would help them significantly because the specialty of Thukker ships is speed, so converting them to missile would take away the handicap of them out tracking their own turrets, and it would give Minmatar pilots another weapon platform to use besides projectile on the higher skill end because as it stands using turrets as your primary offensive skill is your only viable option with the Minmatar line once you advance past T1 ships.

Second change to the Minmatar line. Make all ships capable of being shield tanked, with a few balanced enough to possibly armor tank. Based on assumption of the races preferences Gallente and Amarr are armor tank ships while Caldari and Minmatar are shield which stands for much of all the races lines except Minmatar. Primarily the Wolf and Muninn, which have slot layouts that are closer to Amarr than other Minmatar ships. Some other ships being the Hyena, Rupture, and Hurricane.

Finally instead of an optimal or falloff bonus give all the Minmatar combat ships a combined bonus. This would have relatively little effect on autocannons, seeing as their optimal is negligible to start with while giving a ship equipped with artillery a reasonable range compared to beams and rails. For example a 720mm Arty has a base of 24km and 18km falloff, and with all turret skills at 5 that becomes 30km and 22km with the effective range being ~38km without sacrificing too much damage. Now if you give a ship like a Muninn a 10% bonus to optimal and falloff instead of just optimal you would give a full skill AC Muninn a mid level ammo range of 4.5 km optimal, 18km falloff, and effective range of ~10km, while at the same time an Arty Muninn would have 45km optimal, 33km falloff, and effective range of ~55km. This change would allow any Minmatar ship with a range bonus to effectively use both autocannons and artillery without being overpowered because while you are adding to both optimal and falloff, any bonus to the falloff range is really only as effective as ~25% of the optimal bonus to actually adding to the range of the turret.


I was with you right up until the word 'seeing'.

So no, buffing minmatar would make us op.

learn to fight in the fall off...

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-12-25 01:06:10 UTC
I'd like to point out that the Core complexion ships are being redesigned as the missile boats for the 'secondary' weapon system. Thukker ships could use a little work in regards to consistency, I do agree though.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#36 - 2014-12-25 01:55:09 UTC
if one weapon system is broken you dont change the ships that use those weapon to use another one, you fix the broken weapon system
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#37 - 2014-12-25 02:29:22 UTC
Minmatar need help, but that help will not come in the form of MISSILES. Which are also awful.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#38 - 2014-12-25 17:17:45 UTC
what made minmatar obsolete was the rising of the gallentes, blaster and null buff.
now i dont want gallente ships to be nerfed so what i think minmatar needs is 2 thing
1. their ships need to be a tiny bit more agile quite alot of other ships win in acceleration compared to minmatar ships, and once they catch you its game over, minmatar lore is to have fast and agile ships yet minmatar have some of the heavier ships around EVE.
2. give AC a buff in falloff to offset the TE nerf, said falloff nerf was mainly made to put some limits to some blaster boat having crazy ranges (Talos) and they deserved that nerf but poor ACs were left with no range advantage against anything. i would like to see some adjustment to arty as well but its not important on my book, 720 lost a big deal of alpha advantage compared to medium rails, small arty are freaking useless.
Nodire Hermetz
Jump 2 Beacon
Death Legion of Capybaras
#39 - 2014-12-25 17:26:34 UTC
+1
minnie ships MUST be agile and fast , lot of ships can slingshoot them easily (a armor deimos can easily slingshoot a nanoshield vaga , the window of error are equal at 0 , i cant believe that an armor gallente ships are more agile than a nanoshield minmatar ships)
and actually the autocanon are the worst weapon in the game , even on bonused hull , any weapon can do the job better
Zaqq use laser/blaster vaga with much more efficiency than using autocanon , its completely awfull
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#40 - 2014-12-26 10:00:56 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
All those changes are good, but you really wanna train 2 weapon systems?


Any minmatar pilot worth their salt has trained projectiles, missiles and drones, both shield and armor tanking and has their navigation and propulsion skills well-trained as well.

Truly, the Minmatar ship lineup as a whole is the most SP-intensive thing this side of a Titan.... and it should stay that way. Minmatar don't need an "alternate T2 weapon" and don't need their tanking layout centered around shields because their primary tank and alternate weapon is versatility. Also because both Khanid and Caldari already have missiles as their T2 weapon.

As one who is well-trained in rocket/HAM/torp usage, I say enough with the missiles already. Go fly a Fleet Phoon/Fleet Scythe, Claymore or Hound if you want missiles on a better-than-T1 Matari ship.

-1
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