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Intergalactic Summit

 
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About patriotism and hope : on the notoriety of Diana Kim

Author
Anslo
Scope Works
#21 - 2014-12-24 02:27:56 UTC
It's a labor of seething pure unadulterated hate. Takes time.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-12-24 09:40:36 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I'll be interested to see exactly where this ends up going. I have some sympathies as I remember when Diana Kim was held up as the epitome of the Patriot bloc capsuleers and I am often sad to see how far she has fallen.


I don't recall that ever actually being a thing, Kirjuun. She had grudging respect but was never the epitome; she has always had a couple of screws loose upstairs, she just went completely overboard after Heth took his extended sabbatical, evidently sending her reputation such as it was, with him.
Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#23 - 2014-12-24 15:33:51 UTC
The short break is over and the broadcast continues, showing again the presenter and Haria Haritimado in the New Caldari Prime Daily studio. Both studying the recent comments.

“Here we are back again. We received some comments from the audience with a… mixed reaction, I would say. But quiet some capsuleers are among them, which is a good thing, I think. Ms. Haritimado, what’s in your mind?”

“Well, first of all thank you for the replies and comments. Some of them reflect my opinion quiet well. For example the feeling that Diana Kim should be left alone. Anyway, when I had graduated, it was impossible to get past her. And if someone asks why we are still discussing Diana Kim, I would say because there has been a lot of fuss about her, but it never really got solved. Discussions in the IGS prominently focused on her. Mostly the discussions were rude and overexagerated. Sometimes, someone tried to act more or less on behalf of the Strike Commander. But I was unsettled by the radicalism that accompanied most discussion partners, including herself. For me, in order to come to terms with the perspective of a life as a Caldari capsuleer, I had to see if Diana Kim really was like she appeared to be. That’s why I started my research. And I’m not intending to blame her or drag her back into a discussion she doesn’t want. I’m pretty sure she won’t join this ongoing debate. So, I’m not going to ‘summon’ her. – Some very well known and experienced capsuleers just replied on the discussion and I’m very thankful for that. And I’m struck by the reactions as well. Why is it, that Diana Kim catches so much attention and provokes such strong reactions? This is certainly not the place to find an answer. Anyway, she agreed to the interview and I’m not going to betray her trust by stabbing her in the back or join a common choir of accusations, pity, or degradation. We won’t see the interview in full length either.”

“Alright, back to topic then!”

“Yes. It is not about Diana Kim. She just happened to be an example which I could not avoid. I consider this my fault, not hers. Anyway, it is about how capsuleers perceive each other and present themselves to each other. The thing that struck me most when I did my research on Diana Kim and met her personally was that she appeared as a very different person. Highly intelligent, respectful, patient and restrained. Maybe even a bit shy. After I had the chance to get a closer look and understanding it left me restless and unsettled on one hand, but reliefed and calmed on the other. On one hand, she has a very radical view and left no questions, that she’s serious and thoughtful about what she states in public. For example, when we were talking about freedom:”

The video shows a calm interview situation in some kind of lounge. Diana Kim is sitting opposite to Haria Haritimado.

Quote:
Kim: “Freedom is a chaos, freedom means you can violate any law, any moral law, any custom, any relationship, any promise, code. Freedom means lack of anything that binds you, love, duty, posessions. Freedom means you are individual and act as you want to, disregarding anything. I don’t think there should be tolerance to such behaviour in the State. While we can arrest those, who violate laws… we should still cease support to individualists and provide better benefits for those, who are working for the good of Many.”

[…]

Haritimado: “I am struck by your decisive judgement on freedom and that you see freedom so closely related to violence and violation of laws. Why is it, that your judement is so – if I may say – radical?”

Kim: “I have been thinking a lot about freedom […] It became rather obvious for me, that a freedom is a sort of a maxima of individualism, low animalistic form of desire to do just whatever you want without feeling any consequences.”

Haritimado: “I see. So, just to get you right, do you say there is a tolerable degree of freedom? Or should we just skip the whole word and rather talk about ‘individuals’ which are always only existing in relation to public servitude?”

[…]

Kim: “How can you make a degree of freedom, if you set at least one law? If you set any norm, or create any bond. It won’t be a freedom anymore, and with such bond claiming you have a freedom would be a delusion, like gallenteans love to make. I think freedom is both bad word and both bad concept.”
Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#24 - 2014-12-24 15:34:42 UTC
“This is an extreme example of a very narrow and undisputable concept of freedom. She was so focused on rivalry toward the Gallante, that it was hard to bear. And I’m very well aware of the history of both nations. But on the other hand, from what she said and from what others I talked with stated, I could find some deeper understanding. Everything she says is related to things that happened in her past. It has a personal meaning, a history. And even if I don’t share every idea, it is understandable how it came this way. Even more unsettling was the fact that she showed some very deep dedication to the cause of our people, but at the same time she appeared tired to me, nearly fatalistic. She surrendered to a certain role she propably never wanted.”

Quote:
Haritimado: “I asked my self many times, what you are thinking about the role and importancy of personal friendship. Because you are so dedicated to our State and increasingly regarded as a lone wolf. But how do you value personal friendships?”

Kim: “We are kind of forced to be… lone wolves. As capsuleers, we live and die alone, in hydrostatic capsules. We live in solitary quarters. But on other hand, if we serve corporations, if we serve the State, all our citizens become our personal friends. We live and die for them. And if you can sacrifice your own life for other, isn’t it the best estimate for a value?” […] “Some offspring should be honed and cultivated. Others – sent to war and killed. There’s nothing wrong in this, we all play our roles, and our duty is to die with honor for others to live.”


“One person I questioned about Diana Kim said, he would like to see her recover and catch up but he saw her ‘locked in Hethian stasis’, as he called it. I suddenly understood when I met her. Anyway, when I adressed it, she left a door open for her personal future.”

Quote:
Haritimado: “Some of the people I had the chance to question about their view on Diana Kim stated, that they feel sympathy for her and would like to see her overcome the present unpleasant situation. From their perspective, time has changed, but Diana Kim remained basically the same. This could be understood from a political perspective. You would be called a conservative then. But I was surprised that they adressed the matter on a personal level. […] Many perceive you as a suffering individual, increasingly left alone and forsaken by public sympathy. They would like to see you… recover or somehow… come back to them. How do you feel about this?”

Kim: “I don’t think I am suffering anymore. I have suffered enough, and what was suffering died out. I don’t look for public sympathy and there’s just nothing left inside me to recover… As for changing… I think I have changed lately enough. If there will be a requirement, I will change again.”


“I would like to close now with two biddings. One toward Diana Kim and one toward the audience, which I hopefully did not offend or unnerve.”

“Sure, go ahead, Ms. Haritimado!”

“To Diana Kim I would like to say: refrain from being just a tool! Reinvent yourself within the present situation and beyond the constraints of politics. I know I’m not the first person to say this, but anyway. You said you would change again if necessary. What does this really mean? – And toward the audience: give other capsuleers the chance to see behind your mere statements and positions. Fueling ongoing conflicts seems to be below our dignity and mission. And if violence against each other for whatever causes seem to be inevitable, let us quickly resolve it and remember, that there may come the need to join for a common cause in the future. Resentments and conflicts make us inflexible. And I share Diana Kim’s thought, that we must remain flexible and ready to adapt, no matter the cost.”

“Thank you, Ms. Haritimado, for your time and shared thoughts on capsuleers. We keep the channel open for further comments but will proceed to our next topic soon. Stay tuned with NCP Daily!”

Haria Haritimado is bid farewell and the show continues.
Aedre Lafisques
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#25 - 2014-12-24 20:37:38 UTC
I've spoken to Kim only once. She was pleasant and we discussed the particulars of bar fights and their psychological uses. Not that either of us knew, or probably still know anything about them.
It seems silly, but I hold onto that exchange.

I know all about Kim besides this, I've witnessed her inflammatory statements and posturing that has threatened to upset me, but mostly made me consider that she speaks for at least some people. That there are frustrations and misunderstandings and threats that we pose that are seen as very real.

She's respectable in her passion. I don't like what her passion is for and I think it hurts herself more than it helps anyone else. I don't define 'freedom' the way she does, and I don't think a lot of people do. But when I see a clear response from her about something, I'm not entirely philosophically alienated. I get it, though I don't like that it is usually followed by a call for genocide. It hurts her perfectly reasonable arguments for Caldari solidarity, culture, philosophy I think. Philosophy about why anyone should want to live in stratified communities. There is a certain culture of 'wild abandon' that I grew up with that I could very easily understand to be terrifying even to some cultures within the Federation, let alone a Caldari conservative. I know how concerning some of the issues with freedom are. Sometimes I'm concerned about them myself.

Our definition of freedom is still the path that I choose to back, but I'll never say it's infallible. That would be disingenuous. We've chosen a very difficult and complicated thing to try to be, something that may never be well-defined or finished. I'm not sure why we wanted to do things the hard way, but that's who we are, and I feel we should continue to conduct ourselves in its interest.

Nobody wants to hear this kind of 'tolerance' from a Militia member of course (in before 'but you've killed thousands', which I would refute to some degree), but I think this kind of pigeonholing is in line with the topic at hand. I don't have to demonize my 'enemy' just because I work for the militia. I don't consider that responsible - resisting that makes my job very difficult, and I don't enjoy what I do. But I'm a civilian relations officer - if I don't stay, then the front loses someone that isn't in this explicitly for personal reasons. What difference does one person make? Not much, but if I don't believe in what I'm doing outside the pod, then I don't believe helping is helping. We are invaders in some cases, relievers in others, and simply an unwanted nuisance in most of the rest. In some cases, my team is the only one that is sent to talk to them.

A lot of people have very real, sensitive reasons for fighting here. There's a certain point where I can't expect someone to simply let go because it is 'time'. What the hell do I know? I have always had a bit of sympathy for Kim on her side without ever knowing any of her story. I can pretty safely assume she has one. A lot of people involved in the conflict just do. It's inhumane to expect people to be reasonable, I've noticed. An open heart means a blind eye a lot of the time, and in some cases requires what should be a reluctant decision to do the opposite.

It takes a lot of work to bridge divides and make sense of any of this, or worse, try to make anyone truly involved sensible. Ultimately, no matter how much we fight each other, we also need to be looking out for those of us that are injured by the war. It's idealist sure, but if we lose all the idealists, we, especially in the Federation, no longer have anything that holds us together. If we don't have vision, and that vision isn't ultimately positive, then I venture to say we don't have much of anything as we lack the greater group that holds the other empires together. Company, God, Tribe - To rally solely behind 'Freedom' isn't right - the Federation is not 'about' freedom any more than the Amarrian religion is 'about' slaves. What happened to our Vision?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2014-12-25 08:02:28 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:

Nobody wants to hear this kind of 'tolerance' from a Militia member of course (in before 'but you've killed thousands', which I would refute to some degree), but I think this kind of pigeonholing is in line with the topic at hand. I don't have to demonize my 'enemy' just because I work for the militia. I don't consider that responsible - resisting that makes my job very difficult, and I don't enjoy what I do. But I'm a civilian relations officer - if I don't stay, then the front loses someone that isn't in this explicitly for personal reasons. What difference does one person make? Not much, but if I don't believe in what I'm doing outside the pod, then I don't believe helping is helping. We are invaders in some cases, relievers in others, and simply an unwanted nuisance in most of the rest. In some cases, my team is the only one that is sent to talk to them.


This is probably the most 'real' vision of the Faction War that I've seen from a militia pilot of any side. I was always struck by the stations, with their magnetic signage that can be swapped between Napaani or Garoun, their hassled looking staff who deliberately affect speech without hint of accent and don't like making eye contact.

What exactly happens to a capsuleer who punches a waitress, anyway? Not a whole lot, sadly. Not a lot.

I long gave up the belief that we're doing much good for the people - unless we could hold onto a system permanently. The best we do is give people a chance to get out of that part of space and hop a transport back to civilised parts.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#27 - 2014-12-26 18:27:11 UTC
Jukko Riis wrote:
Extremism in any form can be dangerous, and unwise.




A very wise man once said,

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! "
Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-12-26 19:33:34 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Jukko Riis wrote:
Extremism in any form can be dangerous, and unwise.




A very wise man once said,

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! "



I said it can be dangerous and unwise. I'll agree that sometimes you have to fly a red flag and let the bodies fall where they may.

"Liberty" is an illusion. It's a mouse in a maze trying to decide on which piece of cheese is best and saying how happy he is to have a choice.

Extremism in the pursuit of justice is merely revenge. Justice is made by the patient and dedicated. It is an act of will, not passion.
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-12-26 20:30:07 UTC
The Commander and I have discussed these matters on several occasions. I respect her greatly and while I think she would bristle at the suggestion, I consider us friendly acquaintances - actual friendship seems moot at this juncture.

The idea that "freedom" means a total lack of restraint is not an uncommon misconception within the State, an error that I believe stems from liberties taken with early translations of Gallente political works. The point with which I like to counter is that in a society defined by its laws, an individual who behaves in accordance with these laws is simply doing as they are told. In a society without such strictures, the individual who follows a path of decency and kindness is doing so out of conscience. It is only when we are free to be bad that we can truly be good.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

Sammie Mernher
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-12-26 23:02:05 UTC
you people sicken me, using poor Kim as a scapegoat for any and all your problems.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2014-12-26 23:08:43 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Jukko Riis wrote:
Extremism in any form can be dangerous, and unwise.




A very wise man once said,

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! "


And then he orbitally bombarded civilians. Let ME remind you that evil done in the name of good is NOT good and that good done in the service of evil is still evil.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#32 - 2014-12-26 23:09:47 UTC
Sammie Mernher wrote:
you people sicken me, using poor Kim as a scapegoat for any and all your problems.

Nope, she deserves the blame for everything. For instance, I stubbed my toe and it's all her fault....Roll

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-12-27 01:17:42 UTC
Quattras Peione wrote:
The Commander and I have discussed these matters on several occasions. I respect her greatly and while I think she would bristle at the suggestion, I consider us friendly acquaintances - actual friendship seems moot at this juncture.

The idea that "freedom" means a total lack of restraint is not an uncommon misconception within the State, an error that I believe stems from liberties taken with early translations of Gallente political works. The point with which I like to counter is that in a society defined by its laws, an individual who behaves in accordance with these laws is simply doing as they are told. In a society without such strictures, the individual who follows a path of decency and kindness is doing so out of conscience. It is only when we are free to be bad that we can truly be good.


There is freedom. And then there is anarchy.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ponder Rouge Affinor
RURAL RAIDERS
#34 - 2014-12-27 01:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ponder Rouge Affinor
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Sammie Mernher wrote:
you people sicken me, using poor Kim as a scapegoat for any and all your problems.

Nope, she deserves the blame for everything. For instance, I stubbed my toe and it's all her fault....Roll



All movements and ideals need a figure head. If it weren't her then it'd be someone else.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#35 - 2014-12-27 01:52:46 UTC
Who is following her? Rather, who is making it known they are?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#36 - 2014-12-27 02:16:06 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Who is following her? Rather, who is making it known they are?

Quite a few people, it seems... I wonder if my fan base is this large....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#37 - 2014-12-27 02:17:47 UTC
Well... too bad they arent in calmil it seems...
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-12-27 03:20:16 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

There is freedom. And then there is anarchy.

Precisely my point. Thank you sir.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#39 - 2014-12-27 07:22:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Jukko Riis wrote:
Extremism in any form can be dangerous, and unwise.




A very wise man once said,

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! "


And then he orbitally bombarded civilians. Let ME remind you that evil done in the name of good is NOT good and that good done in the service of evil is still evil.

Indeed Pieter, history teaches many lessons.

But look to your own house and we will look to ours.
Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-12-27 17:32:33 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Leave Miss Kim alone!


Obvious sock puppet is obvious.
That is all.