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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2761 - 2014-12-23 07:08:18 UTC
Anke Eyrou wrote:
What did I miss, whats the TL,DR? Thanks


TL;DR:

"muh plex! isboxing is botting! ban them all!"
"No it isn't, here's evidence. Plex has always been rising thanks for hoarders and market manipulators, can't blame on boxers"
"bu-bu-but muh effort"
"Wrong. Evidence here"
"bu-bu-but muh feelings"
"Have some logic"
"bu-bu-but muh 6A3"
"Was always per toon, not per human"
"bu-bu-but it's so easy in the videos"
"You're just seeing the end result of days and weeks of preparation and effort. Same as a sword. Any idiot can pick up the end result and say 'meh, looks easy enough', but it's a much different story once you try it yourself."
"you must be so butthurt to have beaten my feelings with logic"

Drunk ediiton, so ignore spelling mistaeks.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#2762 - 2014-12-23 08:01:09 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Round robin sends one command to the focus window and one command to your window management software (to change to the next focus window) per click.

Macro.

(Also to preempt your next attempt at having alternate presses do the same dirty, you're then sending each click to the mouse software to control the switching of functions, so still a macro.)


Technically no. It sends command A to window 1 on button press #1. It then sends command A to window 2 without changing windows on button press #2. If it sent the command and then alt-tabbed, or something similar, then yes, it would be a macro.
Since it doesn't, it isn't, and you don't know what you're talking about.


I'm not sure I believe that..

If you have say...10 clients open using the scenario above. What exactly is happening on each single button click?

You even point out that you don't even need to change windows! So what exactly are you achieving? You certainly can't use it for any mining without scanning and locking a target and activating the lasers.

Same for missioning, incursions, roams etc..it's irrelevant what it is.

So what exactly are you doing? What happens in the other clients that you don't even need to look at to control?

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2763 - 2014-12-23 08:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Drago Shouna wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Round robin sends one command to the focus window and one command to your window management software (to change to the next focus window) per click.

Macro.

(Also to preempt your next attempt at having alternate presses do the same dirty, you're then sending each click to the mouse software to control the switching of functions, so still a macro.)


Technically no. It sends command A to window 1 on button press #1. It then sends command A to window 2 without changing windows on button press #2. If it sent the command and then alt-tabbed, or something similar, then yes, it would be a macro.
Since it doesn't, it isn't, and you don't know what you're talking about.


I'm not sure I believe that..

If you have say...10 clients open using the scenario above. What exactly is happening on each single button click?

You even point out that you don't even need to change windows! So what exactly are you achieving? You certainly can't use it for any mining without scanning and locking a target and activating the lasers.

Same for missioning, incursions, roams etc..it's irrelevant what it is.

So what exactly are you doing? What happens in the other clients that you don't even need to look at to control?
They simply get controlled without focus. The inability to click on an inactive window is simply an OS choice, there's no reason a window can't accept input when it's not the active one. Round robin simply sends each press to the next window, it doesn't actually send an alt tab. For clicking on things, VFX handles that in much the same way (just without rotation, just multiple overviews fro example on a single window).

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#2764 - 2014-12-23 08:59:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Round robin sends one command to the focus window and one command to your window management software (to change to the next focus window) per click.

Macro.

(Also to preempt your next attempt at having alternate presses do the same dirty, you're then sending each click to the mouse software to control the switching of functions, so still a macro.)


Technically no. It sends command A to window 1 on button press #1. It then sends command A to window 2 without changing windows on button press #2. If it sent the command and then alt-tabbed, or something similar, then yes, it would be a macro.
Since it doesn't, it isn't, and you don't know what you're talking about.


I'm not sure I believe that..

If you have say...10 clients open using the scenario above. What exactly is happening on each single button click?

You even point out that you don't even need to change windows! So what exactly are you achieving? You certainly can't use it for any mining without scanning and locking a target and activating the lasers.

Same for missioning, incursions, roams etc..it's irrelevant what it is.

So what exactly are you doing? What happens in the other clients that you don't even need to look at to control?
They simply get controlled without focus. The inability to click on an inactive window is simply an OS choice, there's no reason a window can't accept input when it's not the active one. Round robin simply sends each press to the next window, it doesn't actually send an alt tab. For clicking on things, VFX handles that in much the same way (just without rotation, just multiple overviews fro example on a single window).


So you keep saying, but it didn't come close to answering the questions I asked.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2765 - 2014-12-23 09:27:22 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They simply get controlled without focus. The inability to click on an inactive window is simply an OS choice, there's no reason a window can't accept input when it's not the active one. Round robin simply sends each press to the next window, it doesn't actually send an alt tab. For clicking on things, VFX handles that in much the same way (just without rotation, just multiple overviews fro example on a single window).


So you keep saying, but it didn't come close to answering the questions I asked.


To put it in laymans terms, ISBoxer overrides the OS's need for a window to have focus in order to receive commands, much the same way that Chrome does when you are focused on browser window A and then scroll down on window B.

For your question. I have 10 clients, and they have a MJD in slot F1. I have ISBoxer set up so that when I press a key once, it will send that command to window 1. When I press the same or another key, depending on your configuration, it will send that command to window 2. By default, it does not bring window 2 into direct focus, i.e. bring to front / alt-tab.

Effectively, I can spam left-mouse button on my overview (set to ores / asteroids via overview settings) on client 1, and, with enough clicks, all the other clients will select that same target. I can then spam F1, and my mining fleet will start mining rock #1. Very inefficient, but I just chose this as one of the simpler (sorta. As I say "simpler" my roommate hits me on the head) aspects of EVE. To be completely honest, I'd be surprised if 99% of mining boxers didn't already use RRB to target separate ores to remove overlap. It makes sense, because for miners, straight broadcasting is only used when undocking, using gates, fixing skill queue, or entering a POS pw.

Your last question is somewhat of a copy of #1. There are programs that will "trick" your computer into thinking each window of whatever you have open always has focus, eliminating the need to "click to focus" on a client if you tile your window or have multiple monitors.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#2766 - 2014-12-23 11:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
Nolak Ataru wrote:

To put it in laymans terms, ISBoxer overrides the OS's need for a window to have focus in order to receive commands, much the same way that Chrome does when you are focused on browser window A and then scroll down on window B.

For your question. I have 10 clients, and they have a MJD in slot F1. I have ISBoxer set up so that when I press a key once, it will send that command to window 1. When I press the same or another key, depending on your configuration, it will send that command to window 2. By default, it does not bring window 2 into direct focus, i.e. bring to front / alt-tab.

Effectively, I can spam left-mouse button on my overview (set to ores / asteroids via overview settings) on client 1, and, with enough clicks, all the other clients will select that same target. I can then spam F1, and my mining fleet will start mining rock #1. Very inefficient, but I just chose this as one of the simpler (sorta. As I say "simpler" my roommate hits me on the head) aspects of EVE. To be completely honest, I'd be surprised if 99% of mining boxers didn't already use RRB to target separate ores to remove overlap. It makes sense, because for miners, straight broadcasting is only used when undocking, using gates, fixing skill queue, or entering a POS pw.

Your last question is somewhat of a copy of #1. There are programs that will "trick" your computer into thinking each window of whatever you have open always has focus, eliminating the need to "click to focus" on a client if you tile your window or have multiple monitors.


So what you are saying is that you're planning to use isboxer not to manage windows/logins but use it for imput, which stated in the OP is not allowed and binding a series of action to one mouse button (click and select next client)? Using ISBoxer to broadcast your keystrokes to 1 client is still broadcasting, i've bolded the fun part.

CCP Falcon wrote:

Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing of actions with consequences in the EVE universe, are prohibited and will be policed in the same manner as Input Automation.

This includes, but isn’t limited to:

• Activation and control of ships and modules
• Navigation and movement within the EVE universe
• Movement of assets and items within the EVE universe
• Interaction with other characters

Examples of allowed Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing are actions taken that do not have an impact on the EVE universe and are carried out for convenience:

• EVE Online client settings
• Window positions and arrangements (of the EVE Online client in your operating system’s desktop environment)
• The login process

...

TL:DR :

Starting from 01.01.2015 the use of Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing is limited to activities which do not impact the Eve universe. For more details please refer to the entirety of this announcement.

Baddest poster ever
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2767 - 2014-12-23 12:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
handige harrie wrote:
So what you are saying is that you're planning to use isboxer not to manage windows/logins but use it for imput, which stated in the OP is not allowed and binding a series of action to one mouse button (click and select next client)? Using ISBoxer to broadcast your keystrokes to 1 client is still broadcasting, i've bolded the fun part.


Jesus christ, way to cherrypick and completely ignore everything I typed. The thing expressly banned in the OP is straight broadcasting to any number of clients greater than 1. Using the software equivalent of a KVM switch was not banned, and given the fact that just about EVERYONE knows what the heck a KVM switch is, it would be rather silly to ban it without mentioning it.

By your reading of the policy, VideoFX would be banned as well as it allows players to activate multiple modules on different clients without hitting Alt-Tab (or the ISBoxer "bring x client forward" hotkey). However, VideoFX uses Direct X / Aero (in a way that I don't understand as I didn't write it myself) to simulate focus on each little box so a player can interact with them.

Please do research on whatever you're screaming your head off against, or else you'll wind up sounding like the people on the GTA V petition; whiny, immature, and ignorant at best, and downright deceitful at worst.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#2768 - 2014-12-23 12:47:25 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
handige harrie wrote:
So what you are saying is that you're planning to use isboxer not to manage windows/logins but use it for imput, which stated in the OP is not allowed and binding a series of action to one mouse button (click and select next client)? Using ISBoxer to broadcast your keystrokes to 1 client is still broadcasting, i've bolded the fun part.


Jesus christ, way to cherrypick and completely ignore everything I typed. The thing expressly banned in the OP is straight broadcasting to any number of clients greater than 1. Using the software equivalent of a KVM switch was not banned, and given the fact that just about EVERYONE knows what the heck a KVM switch is, it would be rather silly to ban it without mentioning it.

By your reading of the policy, VideoFX would be banned as well as it allows players to activate multiple modules on different clients without hitting Alt-Tab (or the ISBoxer "bring x client forward" hotkey). However, VideoFX uses Direct X / Aero (in a way that I don't understand as I didn't write it myself) to simulate focus on each little box so a player can interact with them.

Please do research on whatever you're screaming your head off against, or else you'll wind up sounding like the people on the GTA V petition; whiny, immature, and ignorant at best, and downright deceitful at worst.



Sorry but myself, and lots of others are reading it exactly the same way.

You're using an outside programme to activate something in the client, regardless of whether it's one at a time or not.

Regardless of what you are using, it's now banned. Well according to how most players are reading the EULA.

Oh btw, I have no idea what a KVM switch is. This is despite gaming for 30 years +, but then again i've only ever believed in playing games with what the makers provide you within the game..( joypads wiki etc excluded )

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2769 - 2014-12-23 13:22:19 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:

Regardless of what you are using, it's now banned. Well according to how most players are reading the EULA.

Bzzzt, Wrong! No amount of faith with make it true.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#2770 - 2014-12-23 13:34:22 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:

Regardless of what you are using, it's now banned. Well according to how most players are reading the EULA.

Bzzzt, Wrong! No amount of faith with make it true.



Well I guess the jury is out until the New Year, so the next few weeks will show who was right or wrong :)

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Komisarzzawada
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2771 - 2014-12-23 13:41:07 UTC
Quote:

Sorry but myself, and lots of others are reading it exactly the same way.

You're using an outside programme to activate something in the client, regardless of whether it's one at a time or not.


Its your and other people ways of reading it, not ccp, Only ccp opion on that issue matters and it has not been calrified.

Anyway, as it has been said, mining, ratting, or other fleets will still be around, even without the isboxer, they maybe running less efficently but they'll still be around.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU1vkit7FGY&index=9&list=PL6DE8DCFCFCC0DB95

This guy was doing dualboxing, without isboxer, miners can mine in very similar way, its not very difficult, alt tabing between windows is not very hard. It may take them more time, but they are still able to mine with many accounts running.

People will adapt, those who wont, will go away, but in general, this changes nothing.

So who is gaining from this change?
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#2772 - 2014-12-23 13:50:30 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
handige harrie wrote:
So what you are saying is that you're planning to use isboxer not to manage windows/logins but use it for imput, which stated in the OP is not allowed and binding a series of action to one mouse button (click and select next client)? Using ISBoxer to broadcast your keystrokes to 1 client is still broadcasting, i've bolded the fun part.


Jesus christ, way to cherrypick and completely ignore everything I typed. The thing expressly banned in the OP is straight broadcasting to any number of clients greater than 1. Using the software equivalent of a KVM switch was not banned, and given the fact that just about EVERYONE knows what the heck a KVM switch is, it would be rather silly to ban it without mentioning it.

By your reading of the policy, VideoFX would be banned as well as it allows players to activate multiple modules on different clients without hitting Alt-Tab (or the ISBoxer "bring x client forward" hotkey). However, VideoFX uses Direct X / Aero (in a way that I don't understand as I didn't write it myself) to simulate focus on each little box so a player can interact with them.

Please do research on whatever you're screaming your head off against, or else you'll wind up sounding like the people on the GTA V petition; whiny, immature, and ignorant at best, and downright deceitful at worst.


Except ISBoxer isn't banned and VideoFX isn't banned either, you might want to read the rules and my post again, as I never say anything of the sort. You can use VideoFX do let your windows do anything they want, but you can't interact with them using ISBoxer.


Also,

You're the one who starts his post with "Jesus Chris" and then ends his post making some weird parralel with something I've never heard about, I'm sorry but there is no screaming on my part. The only ones screaming are the ones feeling the need to defend ISboxer and try to subvert the nature of the changes made to Policies, trying to pigeonhole their views in by using the letter of the new policy instead of the intent.

Baddest poster ever
Miranda Ongrard
Legion of Anarchy
#2773 - 2014-12-23 14:53:57 UTC
Miranda Ongrard wrote:
I use a Logitech G15 Keybord where you have 3x6 macro keys. Do useing them counts as a "hack"?

I have i key that type my charater name and tab down and select "only excat Match" in the contract window. Is that ilegal?



I got a response from CCP now

Quote:
It is regrettably not possible for EVE customer support to authorize or otherwise sanction the use of any specific third party software or hardware; we are simply unable to endorse specific pieces of software or hardware as CCP has no direct control over the development and feature-set of third party programs or tools.

We may, at our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software/hardware that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair game play. However, if any third party application or other software/hardware is used to gain any unfair advantage, or is used for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans.

Please use player-made or other third party software at your own risk. You may find more information regarding CCP's stance and policies on third party applications, client modification and cache scraping at the following webpage:

http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/

The End User License Agreement is also clear on this subject:

http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-eula/

"6. CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."

The following Dev Blog concerning client modification may also be of interest to you:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/client-modification-the-eula-and-you/


Hope that help ohers
Vala Ancalagon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2774 - 2014-12-23 15:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vala Ancalagon
I honestly don't think it goes far enough. They should have banned multi-boxing clients outright, for the ultimate good of the game experience. You can argue there are many activities that "need" alts to be viable, but that's just a symptom of other issues CCP should fix also. If you need an alt to scout for you, that means that someone else playing the scout is boring/undesirable, and that mechanic should be fixed. Scouts, cynos, boosters, etc should all be viable jobs to do in-game. The premise of EvE is that you are a capsuleer, not that you are x number of capsuleers. The intention is that you play through the client, while looking at it in it's standard client configuration, and with a normal keyboard/mouse (not doing special macros, robins, etc). If multi-boxing weren't possible everyone would have a more individual, and interactive experience playing with other people.

Also, this portion of the EULA:

6. CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

This is pretty clear that you have to have focus on the client to issue a command, and that you should be clicking it yourself. Otherwise you have just changed the way it is played.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2775 - 2014-12-23 15:53:23 UTC
Vala Ancalagon wrote:
I honestly don't think it goes far enough. They should have banned multi-boxing clients outright, for the ultimate good of the game experience.

Most of the player base would unsub. You would no longer have a game to play.

Seriously if you feel soo cheated by players having more than one account, go play some pretend MMO like star citizen.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Vala Ancalagon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2776 - 2014-12-23 16:03:20 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Vala Ancalagon wrote:
I honestly don't think it goes far enough. They should have banned multi-boxing clients outright, for the ultimate good of the game experience.

Most of the player base would unsub. You would no longer have a game to play.

Seriously if you feel soo cheated by players having more than one account, go play some pretend MMO like star citizen.


You made a giant leap there from what I said. I don't feel cheated. I simply think it would make a better game. I don't think it will ever happen either way. YMMV. And SC isn't a game, it's a fancy video sequence xD
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#2777 - 2014-12-23 16:08:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Round robin sends one command to the focus window and one command to your window management software (to change to the next focus window) per click.

Macro.

(Also to preempt your next attempt at having alternate presses do the same dirty, you're then sending each click to the mouse software to control the switching of functions, so still a macro.)


Technically no. It sends command A to window 1 on button press #1. It then sends command A to window 2 without changing windows on button press #2. If it sent the command and then alt-tabbed, or something similar, then yes, it would be a macro.
Since it doesn't, it isn't, and you don't know what you're talking about.


I'm not sure I believe that..

If you have say...10 clients open using the scenario above. What exactly is happening on each single button click?

You even point out that you don't even need to change windows! So what exactly are you achieving? You certainly can't use it for any mining without scanning and locking a target and activating the lasers.

Same for missioning, incursions, roams etc..it's irrelevant what it is.

So what exactly are you doing? What happens in the other clients that you don't even need to look at to control?
They simply get controlled without focus. The inability to click on an inactive window is simply an OS choice, there's no reason a window can't accept input when it's not the active one. Round robin simply sends each press to the next window, it doesn't actually send an alt tab. For clicking on things, VFX handles that in much the same way (just without rotation, just multiple overviews fro example on a single window).


I'm trying to understand this myself. I've watched this video that was created by the creator of ISBoxer, Joe Thaler, a couple of times and it seems to do as you described.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6gsNLMsVI

For those who watch the video, go to the 2 minute mark to see how ISBoxers can set up and use round robin. Also, don't freak about about the input broadcasting he describes, you can turn that off.

Now, my understanding of the EULA is that all commands must be entered using the EVE client. So what you are telling me is that round robin bypasses the EVE client and injects the commands directly into the EVE client's memory space? Isn't that type of injection a violation of the EULA? I know that people who use injection bots get a permanent ban for client modification instead of a 30 day ban for botting if caught botting using such a bot on a first offense.

Not trying to be a smart aleck here; just trying to understand how this works.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2778 - 2014-12-23 16:13:01 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
You're using an outside programme to activate something in the client, regardless of whether it's one at a time or not.
This is complete and uter rubbish. CCP have explicitly stated that the thing being banned is precisely to do with where it's one at a time or not. If it's one client and 1 commands per push, it's allowed. I really don't care if you've read the EULA and think it shouldn't be, that's the way it is.

handige harrie wrote:
Except ISBoxer isn't banned and VideoFX isn't banned either, you might want to read the rules and my post again, as I never say anything of the sort. You can use VideoFX do let your windows do anything they want, but you can't interact with them using ISBoxer.
VideoFX *is* ISBoxer genius. It's a feature of ISBoxer. ISBoxer itself is not banned (as you've rightly pointed out), only 1 feature (broadcasting) is. Strictly speaking, absolutely zero features of ISBoxer are banned, since ISBoxer is a configuration tool. Broadcasting is a feature of Inner Space, the multiboxing software which also contains other features such as window and CPU management, round robin keybinds, VideoFX, etc. The whole package generally gets called ISBoxer by Joe public.

So yes, you can continue to interact with VideoFX using ISBoxer. The only thing that can;t be done is broadcasting, which for most multiboxers is a "meh..." change.

Vala Ancalagon wrote:
I honestly don't think it goes far enough. They should have banned multi-boxing clients outright, for the ultimate good of the game experience. You can argue there are many activities that "need" alts to be viable, but that's just a symptom of other issues CCP should fix also. If you need an alt to scout for you, that means that someone else playing the scout is boring/undesirable, and that mechanic should be fixed. Scouts, cynos, boosters, etc should all be viable jobs to do in-game. The premise of EvE is that you are a capsuleer, not that you are x number of capsuleers. The intention is that you play through the client, while looking at it in it's standard client configuration, and with a normal keyboard/mouse (not doing special macros, robins, etc). If multi-boxing weren't possible everyone would have a more individual, and interactive experience playing with other people.
Except CCP pushes alts as a primary feature. Things like "power of two" show this is clearly their aim, so changing that would pretty much be kissing goodbye to EVE. Their financials aren't exactly in the healthiest of positions anyway, but nuking the vast majority of their playerbase would definitely be a bad move.

Vala Ancalagon wrote:
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

This is pretty clear that you have to have focus on the client to issue a command, and that you should be clicking it yourself. Otherwise you have just changed the way it is played.
That would also make several hundred pieces of third party software, including things like TS and mumble against the rules. Anything through the IGB would definitely be against the rules.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2779 - 2014-12-23 16:28:04 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
I'm trying to understand this myself. I've watched this video that was created by the creator of ISBoxer, Joe Thaler, a couple of times and it seems to do as you described.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6gsNLMsVI

For those who watch the video, go to the 2 minute mark to see how ISBoxers can set up and use round robin. Also, don't freak about about the input broadcasting he describes, you can turn that off.
Yep, ignoring the broadcasting, that war stop keybind is a round robin. Imagine that is set to "Press F1" instead, and it will tell each client in turn to fire it's mining laser for example.

Rosewalker wrote:
Now, my understanding of the EULA is that all commands must be entered using the EVE client. So what you are telling me is that round robin bypasses the EVE client and injects the commands directly into the EVE client's memory space? Isn't that type of injection a violation of the EULA? I know that people who use injection bots get a permanent ban for client modification instead of a 30 day ban for botting if caught botting using such a bot on a first offense.

Not trying to be a smart aleck here; just trying to understand how this works.
That's a misunderstanding of the technology. When you press a key all it does is fire an even to the active window saying "Hey man, this key got pressed". There are a multitude of ways to do the same thing to an inactive window (global keybinds for example). The windows key is a prime example of this. While the program that intercepts that command is just a program running on the machine, you can have any window active and explorer will receive that command.

A round robin does exactly that, it simply fires the command to the inactive EVE client next on it's list. No memory interactions with the client occur, it simply sends off the command as if you've pressed that key and the EVE client responds as it normally would.

Another example of interacting with EVE from a third party controller is VoiceAttack. You can turn speech into commands, so you say "Fire lasers!" and it can fire your lasers, or "damage control" and it toggles your damage control. It does this in exactly the same way, by firing off the set keybind to the client.

Botting is a completely different thing. Botting uses various methods from DLL injection or memory reads to screen scrapes and OCR to automate gameplay. It has the ability to not just control a client but make it's own decisions based on circumstance. In contrast, a multiboxed character can only do exactly what a player tells it to. If you decide to go off for an hour, it will just sit there idly waiting for your return just like if you left a single client sitting there.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Vala Ancalagon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2780 - 2014-12-23 16:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vala Ancalagon
Lucas Kell wrote:


Vala Ancalagon wrote:
I honestly don't think it goes far enough. They should have banned multi-boxing clients outright, for the ultimate good of the game experience. You can argue there are many activities that "need" alts to be viable, but that's just a symptom of other issues CCP should fix also. If you need an alt to scout for you, that means that someone else playing the scout is boring/undesirable, and that mechanic should be fixed. Scouts, cynos, boosters, etc should all be viable jobs to do in-game. The premise of EvE is that you are a capsuleer, not that you are x number of capsuleers. The intention is that you play through the client, while looking at it in it's standard client configuration, and with a normal keyboard/mouse (not doing special macros, robins, etc). If multi-boxing weren't possible everyone would have a more individual, and interactive experience playing with other people.
Except CCP pushes alts as a primary feature. Things like "power of two" show this is clearly their aim, so changing that would pretty much be kissing goodbye to EVE. Their financials aren't exactly in the healthiest of positions anyway, but nuking the vast majority of their playerbase would definitely be a bad move.

Vala Ancalagon wrote:
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

This is pretty clear that you have to have focus on the client to issue a command, and that you should be clicking it yourself. Otherwise you have just changed the way it is played.
That would also make several hundred pieces of third party software, including things like TS and mumble against the rules. Anything through the IGB would definitely be against the rules.


I agree, they've pushed multiboxing and it will have to stay because of it. I just personally think that was a mistake gameplay-wise, but probably a good one for them financially.

I don't agree that TS violates the rules, it's talking about changing the way the game is played THROUGH the client. TS doesn't have anything to do with the client or how buttons are pushed in it. The IGB itself can't alter or input anything to the client for gameplay so that isn't relevant either. And it's functionality CCP provides themselves.