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Clarification on seeking clarification regarding EULA related issues.

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Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#21 - 2014-12-21 20:39:35 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Don't use macros ,
it's not that hard,
ccp tend to be vague about exactly what will garner you a slap in the unmentionables.
Hot key all day long just don't tie them all together as ccp are being sketchy about answers (fairly good warning sign that it's potential trouble)


They haven't been vague though. I linked a post from a CCP gm who explicitly allowed it and a link from a CCP dev who implicitly forbid it while saying their is no change in macro policy.

To my mind they have just been contradictory. My guess is that the recent changes directed at multibroadcasting accidently have implications for macros on a single character. The blog post suggests this is an accident because the dev stated their macro policy is the same as always and historically these macros have been allowed.

I wanted to get clarification on this, but I don't know who to contact.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-12-21 20:50:06 UTC

The statement from Team Security is very unambiguous. CCP Random's mockup of a EULA flowchart has a multiboxing slant because it was designed for the multiboxing-centric Sticky in GD started by Falcon.

It's very clear that any keypress or click that spawns multiple keypresses or clicks, whether you do it with one client or many, will be EULA breaking.

If you're going to continue ignoring the communication that CCP has provided, then I think this topic is a duplicate of the thread already created for this matter.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#23 - 2014-12-21 21:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Smacks
Team security said macros are not allowed. They further said they were never allowed.

If a rule isn't enforced it doesn't make it any more legal.

You have had plenty of warning now, enforcements coming, no excuse to what is coming.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#24 - 2014-12-21 21:35:32 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Don't use macros ,
it's not that hard,
ccp tend to be vague about exactly what will garner you a slap in the unmentionables.
Hot key all day long just don't tie them all together as ccp are being sketchy about answers (fairly good warning sign that it's potential trouble)


They haven't been vague though. I linked a post from a CCP gm who explicitly allowed it and a link from a CCP dev who implicitly forbid it while saying their is no change in macro policy.

To my mind they have just been contradictory. My guess is that the recent changes directed at multibroadcasting accidently have implications for macros on a single character. The blog post suggests this is an accident because the dev stated their macro policy is the same as always and historically these macros have been allowed.

I wanted to get clarification on this, but I don't know who to contact.

Macros have always been a bad idea.
You just got a mouse with 12 thumb buttons, just hot key away and keep the macros For other functions with less bannhammery implications i.e. not eve (which is very much the vibe I'm getting off of this)

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Elena Ranning
008Bezirk322sschornsteinfeg432ermeiste0191r
#25 - 2014-12-21 22:46:26 UTC
you can use help channel to ask questions and read ansers about the eula for eve players it does not matter if you are docked or not

also LG electrnics makes mouse which is not macro same as Logitec i think u can safley use that and remember never fly what u cant afford to lose.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#26 - 2014-12-21 23:47:28 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:


They haven't been vague though. I linked a post from a CCP gm who explicitly allowed it and a link from a CCP dev who implicitly forbid it while saying their is no change in macro policy.

To my mind they have just been contradictory. My guess is that the recent changes directed at multibroadcasting accidently have implications for macros on a single character. The blog post suggests this is an accident because the dev stated their macro policy is the same as always and historically these macros have been allowed.

I wanted to get clarification on this, but I don't know who to contact.

Actually the GM link you posted did NOT allow it.
It just said they don't normally ban for that level of Macro.
But it is still a Macro, is against the EULA and thus CAN be banned for, even if they normally don't bother.

Reading what is actually said rather than what you wish the words to say helps.
Add to that than any forum posts are considered outdated when the new rules come into effect as well.

So they are not contradictory, and Macro's always have been banned. They have just been nice and not enforced it on very minor cases, but that doesn't change the law. It's like a cop not ticketing you for going 51 in a 50 zone, still illegal, he's just got better things to do with his time.
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#27 - 2014-12-21 23:53:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Waltaratzor wrote:


They haven't been vague though. I linked a post from a CCP gm who explicitly allowed it and a link from a CCP dev who implicitly forbid it while saying their is no change in macro policy.

To my mind they have just been contradictory. My guess is that the recent changes directed at multibroadcasting accidently have implications for macros on a single character. The blog post suggests this is an accident because the dev stated their macro policy is the same as always and historically these macros have been allowed.

I wanted to get clarification on this, but I don't know who to contact.

Actually the GM link you posted did NOT allow it.
It just said they don't normally ban for that level of Macro.
But it is still a Macro, is against the EULA and thus CAN be banned for, even if they normally don't bother.

Reading what is actually said rather than what you wish the words to say helps.
Add to that than any forum posts are considered outdated when the new rules come into effect as well.

So they are not contradictory, and Macro's always have been banned. They have just been nice and not enforced it on very minor cases, but that doesn't change the law. It's like a cop not ticketing you for going 51 in a 50 zone, still illegal, he's just got better things to do with his time.


This is why I want an actual clarification from CCP. Because we have gotten at least 3 distinct opinions in the thread from people who all think their opinion is obviously true.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#28 - 2014-12-21 23:55:48 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:

This is why I want an actual clarification from CCP. Because we have gotten at least 3 distinct opinions in the thread from people who all think their opinion is obviously true.

Read the EULA, it's VERY clear on Macro use.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#29 - 2014-12-22 00:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Luc Lemmont
Mara Rinn wrote:

That sounds about right. If the GM told you to take it to the forums, I would suggest escalating that support ticket. Ask for a senior GM to give it some attention. Failing that, I would go full thermonuclear warfare and poke one of the CCP folks on Twitter (who won't necessarily be game-rule related devs, but might at least know who you should be bothering). There's also the CSM who, having had contact with various devs directly, might have a better idea of who to escalate to. If you are nice enough they might even champion your cause and ensure that you get a response. But I'm not a CSM so I'm not giving any warranties on that advice.

As for your "activating all hardeners" issue:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

Note the answer to question 1: "automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine".


I would consider any ruling issued prior to the updated statement from team security to be null and void. Certainly a post from 2011 is highly suspect given the changes in the last couple of months.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#30 - 2014-12-22 04:06:39 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

That sounds about right. If the GM told you to take it to the forums, I would suggest escalating that support ticket. Ask for a senior GM to give it some attention. Failing that, I would go full thermonuclear warfare and poke one of the CCP folks on Twitter (who won't necessarily be game-rule related devs, but might at least know who you should be bothering). There's also the CSM who, having had contact with various devs directly, might have a better idea of who to escalate to. If you are nice enough they might even champion your cause and ensure that you get a response. But I'm not a CSM so I'm not giving any warranties on that advice.

As for your "activating all hardeners" issue:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

Note the answer to question 1: "automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine".


I would consider any ruling issued prior to the updated statement from team security to be null and void. Certainly a post from 2011 is highly suspect given the changes in the last couple of months.


CSM member Steve Ronuken asked Team Security member CCP Random about this on Twitter. CCP Random said it counts as a macro.

Link to Twitter.

Another CSM member, Mike Azariah, said on EVE Radio today that he's going to have to stop using his macro that turns on all his hardeners. I take it he's really careful since all CSM members are monitored by CCP's Internal Affairs department.

And I don't blame the OP. He's doing exactly what he's supposed to, and given the confusion, I'd only trust an answer from CCP too. But CCP appears to be confused as well.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#31 - 2014-12-22 05:06:37 UTC
You do realize that if a GM gives you a rule clarification, you can tell others?

You simply can't show them the exact correspondence. So it's basically word of mouth. But you could fake a GM mail anyway, so it's not as if that makes much difference.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#32 - 2014-12-22 06:06:34 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Even if some GM tells you it is ok, some other GM may still think it's cheating and ban you over it.


This.

It is well known that consistency, or even correctness for that matter, is not a strong suit in the GM pool. If you have any doubts at all about a petition response ask for escalation - even if the GM on deck tries multiple times to wave you off. You might still get a wrong answer, but at least it will be a final one.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-12-22 07:24:40 UTC
In this case i'd ignore whatever was said in the past..

Focus on what you have just been told in the Team Security blog.

They even put it the launcher for everyone to see.

I really can't see why you can't understand what you've been told over the last few weeks, honestly, it was crystal clear to see what was going to happen if you carry on using ANY macro, and now it's been clarified.

If someone really can't play without using macros then I would suggest finding another game, or carry on and risk a ban.

It's a great game, you don't need outside help to play and enjoy it.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#34 - 2014-12-22 13:29:39 UTC
As there already is a thread on the same topic, this one gets a lock.


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