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Clarification on seeking clarification regarding EULA related issues.

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Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#1 - 2014-12-21 06:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Waltaratzor
So I was recently told by CCP Logibro to open a ticket for EULA related concerns regarding mice macros(and presumably other EULA concerns as well) as this is the only authoritative source of information.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5323776#post5323776

I went in game and opened a ticket regarding whether or not I could use a macro that activates all my hardeners at once, as there is debate on this issue. The in game GM told me to post my question on the forums and seek clarification from CCP devs here.

So I come seeking clarification on who I am supposed to get clarification from on EULA related issues. The forums? in game tickets? A third source I don't know about?
Memphis Baas
#2 - 2014-12-21 06:32:11 UTC
I think the answer is "no" on that macro. Activating all hardeners at once counts as multiple effects from one click.
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#3 - 2014-12-21 06:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Waltaratzor
Memphis Baas wrote:
I think the answer is "no" on that macro. Activating all hardeners at once counts as multiple effects from one click.


If you read through the thread I posted both sides make good arguments as to whether this macro is allowed or not allowed.

For instance, the chart below was provided by CCP Random, but I have another CCP source which suggests the chart isn't authoritative as its from an ingame ticket while my ingame GM tells me that I should seek the unauthoritative dev posts.

I hope you can understand my confusion.

http://i.imgur.com/FGst7B5.png?1
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#4 - 2014-12-21 06:58:19 UTC
Dev on the forum tells you to open a support ticket.

GM from support ticket tells you to go to the forum and talk to dev.



CCP once again proving that Dev/GM troll is best troll.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5 - 2014-12-21 07:33:43 UTC
Removed a post discussing moderation.

As for your issue OP, I have no official say on what the rules are, but I will advise that if you think it's against the rules, it probably is. Even if it's just activating all hardeners at once.

So, not even once. Automatic input is not recommended.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#6 - 2014-12-21 07:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Waltaratzor wrote:
So I was recently told by CCP Logibro to open a ticket for EULA related concerns regarding mice macros(and presumably other EULA concerns as well) as this is the only authoritative source of information.


That sounds about right. If the GM told you to take it to the forums, I would suggest escalating that support ticket. Ask for a senior GM to give it some attention. Failing that, I would go full thermonuclear warfare and poke one of the CCP folks on Twitter (who won't necessarily be game-rule related devs, but might at least know who you should be bothering). There's also the CSM who, having had contact with various devs directly, might have a better idea of who to escalate to. If you are nice enough they might even champion your cause and ensure that you get a response. But I'm not a CSM so I'm not giving any warranties on that advice.

As for your "activating all hardeners" issue:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

Note the answer to question 1: "automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine".

As for the applicability of this ruling to ISBoxer, I would suggest a common sense interpretation as follows: pressing a bunch of keys at once in one client is entirely unlike keystroke broadcasting where you can press the same key in a bunch of different applications at once. The latter is not normally achievable without special software. The former is easily achievable by simply pressing all the appropriate buttons at the same time (assuming you have a N-key-rollover keyboard).

Speaking to your actual argument surrounding delayed keystrokes issued to multiple clients as a means for working around the automation & keystroke broadcasting rules: if you keep pushing for CCP to draw a line in the sand, they're going to have to draw it closer to the "manual entry" side of the scenario than the "F1, Alt+Tab, Delay 0.2s, Repeat" example. One might even find that CCP decides that the semantic difference between a "keystroke macro" and an "automation tool" is when you inject delays or repeats into keystroke lists.

I would stop bothering them about it at this point in time, before CCP decides that a pre-emptive ruling is required.

Because nobody wins a preemptive thermonuclear strike.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-12-21 07:40:45 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Dev on the forum tells you to open a support ticket.

GM from support ticket tells you to go to the forum and talk to dev.



CCP once again proving that Dev/GM troll is best troll.

its the circle of life
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#8 - 2014-12-21 08:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Dev on the forum tells you to open a support ticket.

GM from support ticket tells you to go to the forum and talk to dev.

I talked to CCP Yossarian and he said this is perfectly normal.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#9 - 2014-12-21 11:12:58 UTC
Even if some GM tells you it is ok, some other GM may still think it's cheating and ban you over it.

Evil RatKid
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-12-21 11:22:08 UTC
It's been clarified....



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/holiday-greetings-team-security/?_ga=1.56703274.1259077967.1406127097

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#11 - 2014-12-21 12:26:32 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
It's been clarified....



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/holiday-greetings-team-security/?_ga=1.56703274.1259077967.1406127097

You should petition the link and tell GMs to read it.

This is kind of getting out of hand ...

Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai

Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear!

Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-12-21 13:00:02 UTC
Sol Project wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
It's been clarified....



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/holiday-greetings-team-security/?_ga=1.56703274.1259077967.1406127097

You should petition the link and tell GMs to read it.

This is kind of getting out of hand ...


Yeah it is a bit.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#13 - 2014-12-21 19:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Waltaratzor
Drago Shouna wrote:
It's been clarified....



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/holiday-greetings-team-security/?_ga=1.56703274.1259077967.1406127097


That ruling says "any use of macros to interact with the game world is prohibited by EULA now, and has always been." There are historical GM posts who have said activating all your hardeners at once is okay. So if there policy is the same as it has always been this macro should be fine, but if this is considered a macro that interacts with the world then it isn't okay.

See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

However, there is a bigger problem. The forum dev post states the any answer other than an ingame ticket is not authoritative. So that blog post and my forum post aren't authoritative sources. But the in game ticket staff is directing me to the forums, which makes me think the GMs do consider those authoritative.
Sol Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#14 - 2014-12-21 19:09:28 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
It's been clarified....



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/holiday-greetings-team-security/?_ga=1.56703274.1259077967.1406127097


That ruling says "any use of macros to interact with the game world is prohibited by EULA now, and has always been." There are historical GM posts who have said activating all your hardeners at once is okay. So if there policy is the same as it has always been this macro should be fine, but if macros that interact with the world aren't allowed then it isn't okay.

See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

However, there is a bigger problem. The forum dev post states the any answer other than an ingame ticket is not authoritative. So that blog post isn't an authoritative source. But the in game ticket staff is directing me to out of game sources, which makes me think the GMs do consider those authoritative.

Imagine the dev asked the GMs, or the other way round.

People talk with eachother, so I've heard. Of all people I would assume that a member of Team Security
knows what his job is and why he enforces it.

Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai

Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear!

Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Iain Cariaba
#15 - 2014-12-21 19:16:28 UTC
Simple solution to whether or not it violates EULA.

Does a single press of a button perform more than one action?

Yes, then it violates the EULA.
No, then in does not violate the EULA.

Definition of macro, according to Webster's dictionary.

They are called macro keys because you can make macros with them, but if the button only performs one action, then it is, by definition, not a macro.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2014-12-21 19:20:59 UTC
This is getting beyond a joke now tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#17 - 2014-12-21 19:40:36 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:
So I was recently told by CCP Logibro to open a ticket for EULA related concerns regarding mice macros(and presumably other EULA concerns as well) as this is the only authoritative source of information.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5323776#post5323776

I went in game and opened a ticket regarding whether or not I could use a macro that activates all my hardeners at once, as there is debate on this issue. The in game GM told me to post my question on the forums and seek clarification from CCP devs here.

So I come seeking clarification on who I am supposed to get clarification from on EULA related issues. The forums? in game tickets? A third source I don't know about?


Welcome to the CCPing Pong, where they constantly send you back and forth between tickets and forums, instead of actually addressing the problem.

Profit favors the prepared
Quanah Comanche
#18 - 2014-12-21 19:41:06 UTC
Quit clogging the pipes with this smelly cargo.

Macros are macros are macros.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2014-12-21 19:56:06 UTC
Don't use macros ,
it's not that hard,
ccp tend to be vague about exactly what will garner you a slap in the unmentionables.
Hot key all day long just don't tie them all together as ccp are being sketchy about answers (fairly good warning sign that it's potential trouble)

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Serene Repose
#20 - 2014-12-21 20:37:29 UTC
I'm in the "click them one at a time" camp. We can never make ganking too complicated.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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