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Dev blog: Industry & Teams - The Removal of Teams

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Xela Kcaneoh
The Pirates Of Orion
#141 - 2014-12-19 13:17:02 UTC
So if you're removing teams, then Wormhole-space POS industry will have the CRIUS TEAM TAX removed, right? I do not understand to whom I am paying this industry tax if you are removing the workers I was supposedly paying. I never bought the Crius "worker" premise to begin with, and I still think it's unbelievable in this century to require biological workers to manufacture anything other than finger-paintings.

If tax collectors will be coming to our POSes to collect taxes, we should at least be able to shoot at them like in real life.

Seagull craps on everything.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#142 - 2014-12-19 14:17:07 UTC
Xela Kcaneoh wrote:
So if you're removing teams, then Wormhole-space POS industry will have the CRIUS TEAM TAX removed, right? I do not understand to whom I am paying this industry tax if you are removing the workers I was supposedly paying. I never bought the Crius "worker" premise to begin with, and I still think it's unbelievable in this century to require biological workers to manufacture anything other than finger-paintings.

If tax collectors will be coming to our POSes to collect taxes, we should at least be able to shoot at them like in real life.


You are paying that tax to maintain your pos labs/assembly arrays.
Just coz you bought a factory doesnt mean it wont cost you anything to run. It sucks up fuel, man power, maintance cost
Vorran
Doomheim
#143 - 2014-12-19 15:24:59 UTC
hum never heard of this Team you speak of that could be part of the problem why such low use?

been playing for 10+ years how and when was this implemented? lol

well pew pew is better anyways
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#144 - 2014-12-19 15:30:19 UTC
Vorran wrote:
hum never heard of this Team you speak of that could be part of the problem why such low use?

been playing for 10+ years how and when was this implemented? lol

well pew pew is better anyways

Good question and point. It was announced on Fanfest 2014 and detailed in Dev Blogs released thereafter. CCP needs to get a lot more vocal about these Dev Blogs. Announce them in the Char selection screen like you do with your *sigh*can't say that*sigh* Plex sales or other useless stuff like new clothing for the NES.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#145 - 2014-12-19 15:32:45 UTC
Firvain wrote:
You are paying that tax to maintain your pos labs/assembly arrays.
Just coz you bought a factory doesnt mean it wont cost you anything to run. It sucks up fuel, man power, maintance cost




Honestly, the only thing I see where you make a point is fuel use.

Yes, it uses fuel but all towers do if you want one bad enough.


Manpower? Other than making/buying/moving fuel blocks for the tower and everything the tower runs, and anchoring it, this isn't a drop in the bucket and would be considered "normal" for using a tower.

Maintenance? Since when have we had to maintain a lab except through powering a POS tower? I could say the same for a CHA, PHA, POS guns and defenses, silo and moon mining modules, etc.. You're really reaching on this one.


It wasn't like this pre-Crius so your argument is invalid, and it's really just an ISK sink.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
MrBowers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-12-19 16:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MrBowers
I don't like the idea of removing them totally as this is EVE a big SAND BOX! It added something new to the game please bring them back asap. Hopeful we can get them back! I like the many options as we can get to enjoy the game not make it limited here!
MRS WOOLFIE Jaynara
MASS GENOCIDE L.T.D
#147 - 2014-12-19 16:13:33 UTC
hu--bloody--rahhh getting rid of teams good riddance to bad rubbish is all i can say.
While your at it how about getting rid of the extortionate research prices on bpos,its at a point where players are no longer researching for profit on contracts as there is no profit anymore,it usually costs more to fully research than you can sell for so why bother.
Cloon McCloon
Space Fukery
#148 - 2014-12-19 16:29:02 UTC
So to summarize this thread, those who actually use it, are fine with leaving it in.... everyone who hasn't taken the time to read about Team's, or is not involved in manufacturing, says "good! teams didn't help *ME* so take it out!"

While you're at it, *I* don't do Incursions, so take that out too please. I don't give a damn about the people who do use it and like it, *I* don't, so just get rid of it.
Zip Girl
#149 - 2014-12-19 16:42:44 UTC
MRS WOOLFIE Jaynara wrote:
hu--bloody--rahhh getting rid of teams good riddance to bad rubbish is all i can say.
While your at it how about getting rid of the extortionate research prices on bpos,its at a point where players are no longer researching for profit on contracts as there is no profit anymore,it usually costs more to fully research than you can sell for so why bother.


Not sure why you think there is no longer any researching for profit. Using a POS; it looks to take about 146 days to research a BS BPO to 10/20 and the cost to research it to 10/20 in a system with a cost index under 1% for ME and TE research; looks to be under 100 million. Using a pretty good research team can knock off another 21 days or so of research time and only adds a few million to the install costs.

Sounds like you are trying to use a station in a system with a high cost index to do your research.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#150 - 2014-12-19 19:36:31 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
The same is true for Invention. The loss in potential ME gains (for those who did use teams), will be monitored, but we expect the increased cost to be passed on to the buyer and not necessarily to eat into margins more. We will monitor the real life impact of this change, but everything so far is pointing to the fact that this removal in practical terms affects a small number of players.


What are you basing this on? The Invention changes only went live in Phoebe last month, that can't possibly be enough time for players to adapt and start working with the changes; and to have enough metrics to claim this. It always takes longer for the economic effects to work themselves out, as queued jobs finish, stockpiles reduce down and better reflect the current price of the jobs.


I may just be uninformed, but wasn't the Invention teams feature completely scrapped? I clearly recalled a forum post or thread saying so pre-Phoebe, and there also seem to be no Invention teams anywhere in-game.
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#151 - 2014-12-19 23:16:53 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
affects a small number of players.

I'd be interested to see some numbers on this, particularly more in context of how it really affects industry.

"single figure percentage use in manufacturing jobs" means up to 10% of jobs used them. That sounds pretty good to me, I'd expect there's a massive long-tail of number of jobs of tiny duration and value.

What's the weighting in terms of value? You could look at teams usage as a proportion of manufacturing time rather than number of jobs - people using teams are likely be to running many fewer, much longer jobs.

Or as ISK value - using the install fee as an approximate metric for that would be pretty straightforward to query, since the API exposes it, so it's in the database.

--
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#152 - 2014-12-19 23:36:43 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
I may just be uninformed, but wasn't the Invention teams feature completely scrapped? I clearly recalled a forum post or thread saying so pre-Phoebe, and there also seem to be no Invention teams anywhere in-game.

Both the invention teams, and the gradation of success/fail into ranges of ME and some materials back were abandoned.

--
Ares Zhin
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#153 - 2014-12-20 02:21:27 UTC
yeah i never understood the whole teams thing. I live in a wh so i have no use for them and there the biggest waist of space ever so i won't be missing them at all.

however i would love some more indy slots to use, 10 seems a bit short and im sure there's plenty that agree.
stoxxine
OLVI industries
#154 - 2014-12-20 12:38:20 UTC
I find it sad you're removing a dimension. God kills a kitten and all that. Sad

Disclaimer: The above was probably written drunk or by a friend on my pc or a hacker. No warranty for any misinformation provided.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#155 - 2014-12-22 00:34:27 UTC
Sooooo, no dev responses at all?

Mostly it seems people that didn't use them want them removed, and people that did use them want them to stay. Seems like a touch more education should be done and a slight reworking based on suggestions mentioned by those who did use it.
Lexi Starshine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#156 - 2014-12-23 10:07:51 UTC
drummendejef maaktnietuit wrote:
I do some manufacturing but never had the feeling I should use teams, they seemed expensive for what they would do, and would make EVE more "spreadsheet online" for me.

I don't think it's a bad thing that they leave.

When I heard about them I thought "teams, cool, now we can manufacture together with other players", and then we got dissapointed :(

So, idea from me: "It's an MMO, make 'Teams' something with other players, like building stuff together"


You mean building stuff with alts.. Would kill industry for all new players and your average non obsessed Joe Cool.
Lexi Starshine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-12-23 10:19:52 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Sooooo, no dev responses at all?

Mostly it seems people that didn't use them want them removed, and people that did use them want them to stay. Seems like a touch more education should be done and a slight reworking based on suggestions mentioned by those who did use it.


It's called X-mas. A time most people try to spend with their families, devs included. Have some common sense,will ya..

On topic, I think the number of players who are using these teams will compare with the number of players who are die hard industrialists/deal with large jobs. Since the gains are too little when looking at the efforts, teams would never be used for/worth it for small jobs. Since teams are open to everyone, why not let the die hards keep their savings? The system is not ideal but it works as intended and in the end they do go through the effort of acquiring them.
Peter VonThal
Raygun Technologies
#158 - 2014-12-23 19:00:51 UTC
Cloon McCloon wrote:
So to summarize this thread, those who actually use it, are fine with leaving it in.... everyone who hasn't taken the time to read about Team's, or is not involved in manufacturing, says "good! teams didn't help *ME* so take it out!"


Exactly. I'm disappointed in CCP removing teams because of a low percentage of players using teams. If they had some good numbers and reasoning behind balancing and such it would be more reasonable. It's clear that a significant number of people never gave teams a second look, or even a first look, after they were released.

I really doubt teams were introduced with the idea that a high percentage of casual builders would: A) invest the upfront costs for a team or B) move a half-dozen jumps to save 1% or 2% on a few jobs they probably wouldn't even bother to run the numbers on anyway. Why would CCP be surprised by this and feel the need to remove them after a few months?

I've been using teams since they were released and have never regretted it. I have rarely felt robbed by being sniped because when I've been serious about getting a team I've bid a reasonable amount of isk for what I felt a team's value was to me.

Yes, they can be improved, but I'd sure rather have them in their current form for a while until another industry pass than have them taken out.

Players should be educated about teams before they are just removed. For example, I've seen people complain about how hard it is to find the right teams for their BPs. Select a BP first and go into the team / charter screen and it will filter out the teams for that type of BP. You can also select a BP and then select a team that is out of your system to see how much effect it will have on time and materials and cost. No, it won't be that exact, but it will give you an idea without having to run a spreadsheet. Worried about how many zeros you're putting in to a bid? Type the bid amount before entering the system name, it will show the commas in the number so you can be sure. No, none of this stuff is perfect, but it's apparent that people aren't aware of some of these basic things and more.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#159 - 2014-12-23 21:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangeresque Too
Lexi Starshine wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Sooooo, no dev responses at all?

Mostly it seems people that didn't use them want them removed, and people that did use them want them to stay. Seems like a touch more education should be done and a slight reworking based on suggestions mentioned by those who did use it.


It's called X-mas. A time most people try to spend with their families, devs included. Have some common sense,will ya..
Its also called this thread has been goingstarted over a week ago, which was how do I say it, not christmas, and pretty lacking on dev responses. Yes technically today is the day before christmas eve, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. That's almost like getting after people for reminding CCP that the killright bug still exists because its the holiday season and they might be out... think bigger picture not just today man. I guess you feel it is completely acceptable to post a thread asking for feedback and then to completely ignore feedback (or at the very least never publicly acknowledge any of it)?
Angela Channing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-12-24 06:18:37 UTC
You are removing virtually the last differentiator between industrialists that only produce. Does that mean you are bringing the production efficiency skill back that I wasted half a month of a subscription on to reintroduce some differentiation on the cost side?

Teams do not matter for most industrialists because

a. the material inputs needed are not divisible enough for most T2 products for teams to matter. Apart from ships, T2 products are anything anyone ever uses (apart from meta modules which have no blueprints). If I only need 6 particles accelerator units to make a T2 blaster, what is a 5 percent ME reduction going to do for me?
b. the time savings to do research or copying are not large enough to effectively matter. Nobody logs in every 3 hours 15 minutes to run a new batch of R&D on small stuff.

However, I would bet that teams are essential to turn a profit on things like T2 cruisers and up, and T1 battlecruisers and up. That teams have been given specs that make them barely used, and that their hiring process deters industrialist coordination and use of teams, does not mean the feature itself is broken. It could be salvaged with fairly small tweaks.