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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#741 - 2014-12-19 11:00:11 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
First of all because you can break range on the ship that points you (the bait needs a web, which means no sebo, which means you can likely warp away before the bait locks you anyways)
Except the bait doesn't need a sebo, you warped in to fight it, remember?

Until his surprise buttsex buddy appears you're not even trying to break range or warp out...

And then it's too late (assuming the bait is decently fitted to hold you for a few seconds... anything with 2 webs and a bit of buffer tank can do it easily).


I agree suprise buttsex games will be slightly easier to pull off, but who cares? It'll be that much more fun and challenging to devise counters.

And the guys like me (and I assume you) that prefer more challenging fights will still be here. It's not that everyone will just fly combat recons next month so we can all laugh at each other instead of proper fighting.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Dullmeyr Prodomo
Gnartz
#742 - 2014-12-19 11:00:53 UTC
Introducing D-Scan invisibility to a ship class appears ill thought through to me. It promotes risk averse game play, not adding anything "interesting" to the game.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#743 - 2014-12-19 11:00:58 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Why in hell anyone use a huggin instead of a rapier? Besides being an idiot? And these laechis numbers at not big at all. Check the dampener bonus on the recons agasint the other dampenign ships and you will see why BOTH are not much used.


Because the Huginn is faster and tanks better

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#744 - 2014-12-19 11:03:29 UTC
HoruSeth wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
How in hell you can say that it will change othign in WH but willb eOP in low sec? Dude you lost all the chance of anyone paying attention on what you post with that...


My post has likes (not an alt!), yours don't, so from general point of view I would assume my Posts got more Attention. ;)

Besides that I did not say it change "nother" in wh. I said it will not Change a lot, so only Little.

And finally: Improve your reading and comprehension skills please. Explainations why for lowsec and wh have been provided many times, not only by me.



just LOOOL.... count the number of likes in the whoel thread of my posts if that is important for you.


And beign popular never was a good measure of wisdom... otherwise democracies would never have elected some "special presidents".

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#745 - 2014-12-19 11:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Aiyshimin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Why in hell anyone use a huggin instead of a rapier? Besides being an idiot? And these laechis numbers at not big at all. Check the dampener bonus on the recons agasint the other dampenign ships and you will see why BOTH are not much used.


Because the Huginn is faster and tanks better




Has the same MID layout and the amount of HP difference is NEGLIGIBLE . And it is NOT faster because the rapier can put an extra speed module at the low slot.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2014-12-19 11:06:20 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only real game changing scenario is FW sites were people can wait inside.. but even that has a drawback..because what comes trough the game might be 2 other recons...
LOL yes, this too.

It's always about the meta, guys. New tools/toys are at everybody's disposal, it's the players themselves that keep other players in check.


I'm way too noob to say that d-scan immunity is 100% good for gameplay (or 100% bad), but it's an interesting new tool for the sandbox. Let's play with it before jumping to conclusions.


Take for example d-scan inhibitor deployables. Everybody was saying 'oooh they'll be used in every single fw plex'.

Yeah right, never seen one in an year. Not. a. single. one.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

HoruSeth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#747 - 2014-12-19 11:09:33 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Take for example d-scan inhibitor deployables. Everybody was saying 'oooh they'll be used in every single fw plex'.

Yeah right, never seen one in an year. Not. a. single. one.


Because they are visible on DS? Blink

On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"

colera deldios
#748 - 2014-12-19 11:12:19 UTC
WH space was designed to be the harshest place to live in. For people willing to go to extreme RISK for the promise of MASSIVE reward and that's how it is. WH residents have massive amounts of benefits to them.

They get best quality PVP, they get super easy ganks on 0.0 residents, they get best SOLO & GROUP income I'm looking at your solo Relic/Data sites & now that is was revealed that with a nighthawk you can tank/mine entire gas cloud even after NPC spawns ( 575m ) for what was 40min of work for me (non-wh resident raiding a C5) seems pretty decent.

If you are running WH anomalies/escalations have active eyes on connections to your space this way and recon can be spotten when jumping in if you are doing scan down sites that it does not matter if you cannot see the ship because you will see the probes.

Also what will one recon really do against a WH fleet ? It lands and it's dead within seconds same as now with cloacky t3/stratios etc. They still need to bring the fleet in and you will see those at best the combat recon will be able to point one unlucky thing on the field.

In any case this makes no difference to WH residents only diference it makes is to FW and there it's not really a big deal if system has no station and you see neut in local you can already assume they are cloacked in FW plex.

Only place this dscan will have some harsh effect is 0.0
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2014-12-19 11:13:13 UTC
HoruSeth wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Take for example d-scan inhibitor deployables. Everybody was saying 'oooh they'll be used in every single fw plex'.

Yeah right, never seen one in an year. Not. a. single. one.


Because they are visible on DS? Blink
Probably, plus they're expensive, plus most people in lowsec are here to fight (else they'd gank freighters in highsec).

But that didn't prevent lots of people 'predicting' that they would've been everywhere...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#750 - 2014-12-19 11:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.

  • The Pilgrim. Opinions seem mixed, gaining neut range is obviously nice but many of you still feel that giving up neut strength is too harsh, or that some other added power is needed (more damage for instance). Will get back to you on this as soon as possible but it's possible that we will make adjustments.

  • RLML for Rook. Sure. Consider it done.

  • More low slots for Lachesis. Not sure yet on this one, will talk it over here and see what we can do.

  • Hope that answers some questions. I'm sure many of you would rather have more explanation for the dscan immunity change so I'll try to get that post together as soon as I can.

    Thanks for all the feedback.

    @ccp_rise

    Adrie Atticus
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #751 - 2014-12-19 11:18:31 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    RLML for Rook. Sure. Consider it done.


    Yay!
    The Bazzalisk
    The Congregation
    HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
    #752 - 2014-12-19 11:20:40 UTC
    I feel it would be better for the cloaky, stealthy, squishy recons to gain the d-scan immunity so they can be permanently invisible and unaffected by object collision interfering with their covops cloak, and the the combat recons to get their slot/stat/resist buffs. But giving the combat recons the stats buffs AND the d-scan immunity seems to me to be a bit over the top.
    Shilalasar
    Dead Sky Inc.
    #753 - 2014-12-19 11:27:07 UTC
    A nice place for combatrecons would be the same PvP capabilities as a T1 cruiser with a T2 resistprofile and their ewarbonuses.
    Then you add the possibility to get them to 50k ehp without links if they do not fit weapons and you have useful fleetships.
    Cherry on top would be bonus to combatprobing so they can do recon.
    Instead there is a jesusfeature that will break the game in many cases and will hurt the people who are already in the shittiest places: Lowend-WH-people without a large group, smallscale-PvPers and FW-nonfarmers.

    This is not about whining, d-scaninvis will perfectly fill a role I have been struggeling to find an answer for for a long time and I will abuse the **** out of it. But it is still a bad design.

    And people talking about 500dps cloakies already existing, that is only a blasterproty which will do it´s dps at 4km. A cloaky railproty will deal less dps than the new lach.
    Jori McKie
    African Atomic.
    HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
    #754 - 2014-12-19 11:27:54 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.

  • Thanks for all the feedback.



    I can tell you what will happen most likely:
    - Less fights because people are risk averse
    - A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.

    In more detail quoting myself:
    Quote:
    Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan will hurt PvP on every scale, solo, small, fleet, WH and FW.

    EVE PvP is risk assessment, most EVE players are risk averse like hell including most FCs. That means if the odds are bad against the enemy fleet = avoid fight and in it's extrem form "fight only if we don't lose any ship" = gank/blob or massive amount of logis.
    With Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan that attitude will highten = less fights overall because then it will be a counting and confirming game. Means if numbers are suspicious any FC will wait for visual/probe confirmation "how many and which Recons", result is combat pace will slow down and will be avoided even more.

    The worst will be, everybody will hide his friends in Recons, so if 2 at first visible glance more or less equal gangs meet nobody will engage because not knowing how many Recons the others have hidden is not an option, especially if lcoal numbers don't add up with visible gang numbers. This mindset will harden into everybody and will lead to **** this just blob the **** out of them.

    In WHs, lol PvP ..... nobody will engage in PvP without probing first anymore. Thera for example will be bait+recons only after 1 week.
    In lowsec and FW, lol PvP..... nobody will ever warp into a medium gated pocket without probing anymore. Nobody will engage without probing the whole system first.


    That will be the consequences of invisible Recons for PvP or in simple words you will need a 2nd Account with a Prober at all times. For PvE in null, wh, lowesec it will be even worse.

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #755 - 2014-12-19 11:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.
  • So you scout ahead in your link ship, your combat ones waiting to warp down to the low-low gate.
    The links jump and see the camp, it looks viable to fight, and the links warp off to a boost spot. Typically it'd be off of dscan of the camp, but perhaps you'd use a close-by spot to be quick about it, and to dscan the camp while making the final call about jumping the combat ships in.
    The camp of course has seen you coming and has eyes on your starting side, and huginns on their main side (off-grid to start with). When they see you commit the combat ships to the gate at 0km, knowing your links have likely moved off and you're about to jump, their huginns come on grid.
    You have scouted the camp, even maintained a dscan of it, seen no impossible tackle & jump your nano ships in to an uneven-but-still-possible fight... and just spawned with web range of huginns. GG you die.

    WTF are you supposed to do? Never have a scout leave the grid you plan to jump to incase a combat recon has warped in? So you now need 2 scouts to check a system: one to actually try find things (excluding combat recons); and one to just hang about on gate grid to ensure you're not jumping into otherwise-unscoutable death?

    At least with the current recons & T3s, you can dscan the gate, and if you call it clear right before you jump but there was hidden stuff, you'll have the decloak delay to make a move to burn out of tackle range, warp, or crash gate. These combat recons will just be insta-locking setup (RSBing t1 logi is a cancerous thing already), giving you no chance.
    Syzygium
    Nagamoto Inc.
    Come in and freak out
    #756 - 2014-12-19 11:30:13 UTC
    HoruSeth wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    Take for example d-scan inhibitor deployables. Everybody was saying 'oooh they'll be used in every single fw plex'.

    Yeah right, never seen one in an year. Not. a. single. one.


    Because they are visible on DS? Blink

    + they are single-use structures that cost about 15m each. They are just not very useful, neither for (moving) gangs that cannot rescoop it, nor for missionrunners or plexers who would ruin their income by dropping one of them per mission/plex they do.
    TuCZnak
    Cyber Dong Industries
    #757 - 2014-12-19 11:32:12 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.
  • Thanks for all the feedback.


    I don't think you value feedback that much, because most of this thread is a really big backlash against this "improvement". Anyway, if the immunity is staying, my subscriptions in your game are not staying, you can be sure about that.
    per
    Terpene Conglomerate
    #758 - 2014-12-19 11:36:55 UTC
    are those recons scanable with probes if you cannot see them on combat scanner?
    how about making module(with some crazy pg/cpu needs) that will hide your ship from combat scanner instead and give recons a bonus for using it?
    while you are at it how about hiding siphons from combat scanners? or were the engineers stoned while developing it?
    Omnathious Deninard
    Ministry of Silly Walks.
    #759 - 2014-12-19 11:37:10 UTC
    TuCZnak wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.
  • Thanks for all the feedback.


    I don't think you value feedback that much, because most of this thread is a really big backlash against this "improvement". Anyway, if the immunity is staying, my subscriptions in your game are not staying, you can be sure about that.

    Can I have your stuff?

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Syzygium
    Nagamoto Inc.
    Come in and freak out
    #760 - 2014-12-19 11:37:34 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
  • Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them!