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What does CCP want? I read about hopes, but no detail on those hopes. Say it right away. We should not be expected to search for every Dev comment either. More direction in the little news feed link off the patcher would be great.

I think it is okay if ccp provides some guidance on how they would like to see the game played... and if they expressed those opinions the devs would get useful feedback.

Little seems to favor intelligent people working together. Lots of hesitation it seems on making changes to roles maybe in hopes to protect how people can betray one another. That said smart people often best work on their own and smart people do not trust others. Every time i want to start working with someone on an industry effort the same result happens, we trade BPOs and it always is someone in a different corp so either way we do not use the corp blueprint mechanics.

On top of that, getting people new to industry involved is so difficult and often hard to encourage player teamwork due to both ignorance of existing corp mechanics and the poor interface discouraging them from trying.

The new UI is great, but if you want teams i say work on the interface and permissions to allow us to do player teamwork better first, then work on getting npcs that take isk out of the economy.

Where as for me, i have 5 bpos for invention, and only a small handful of tech 1 bpos excluding rigs and no plans to get more, im not driven by the idea that i alone should make everything in the game so researching BPOs 24/7/365 sounds like a fools errand for individuals.

The devs should try and get into new player friendly indy corps and see how they actually run their business.

I'll just copy what I posted in the S&I thread on this.

Here's what I posted when teams were introduced: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4531250#post4531250

It seems like this played out like I thought. I also had issues with the auction system, since it seemed obvious that the sniping effect could happen easily. I'm not sure why you didn't see this coming either.

Ultimately though I am frustrated by this because I feel like this wasn't a well thought out idea but really could have been implemented well. Now I (and others) have spent time using all the 3rd party dev support to update our apps for nothing. While I can understand you wanting to fix it, just turning it off because you can't work on it and don't have the resources is really disappointing. I understand Industry doesn't get the interest from devs (omg PVP rulz!) but you might want to consider how many people do industry that would use teams instead of the actual number of people using them. The demand is there, the implementation is the issue.

The number one issue with teams is the auction system. Sure people will complain about the bonuses but I bet those could be easily updated by adjusting your RNG for what teams it spits out. You could also duplicate bonuses on different teams so more people can get what they want.

Anyway, as others have said, leave in the teams - fix the auction system.

The whole "auction" portion of teams was off-putting and painful to use.

Having to check and re-check if you'd won and then scramble to put them to use was also painful.


Removing team before fixing some of the other underlying issues should be where you focus your "fix" before arbitrarily removing them.

I restarted playing a month ago and was astonished that quite a bit has changed and developed.
The Team feature i liked the most, because you can finally compete in building against other people that are building stuff. I am really astonished that the teams are not that highly used... they really can save Millions of isks.
Everything I am building today I build with a team.( though 1 team will go soon and then I have a Problem :) )
I am crunching Minerals for 48 Billion Isk a month ... so a team that gives 5% ME is incredible usefull.
I fear the day when the Teams are gone, some Items will then be without any profit and every non specialized producer can compete again with me .. and then i have no way to change that.

Keep the Teams for the ones that are really interested in Industry. They can handel the complexity.
I really like the Teams for a bit competition beside 0.01 isk wars.

Do not throw them away without any direkt substitute, as they do not do any harm and work well if you put a little brain into it.

Hope that all the posts make you change your minds.

Alot of this boils down to:

CCP if you are going to remove teams, then PLEASE reduce system usage tax costs as well or remove them as well.


The way to offset the tax is the teams, if the teams are no longer there then the system tax and usage costs should be reduced or removed as well.

On the other hand, you could just do a campaign on HOW to use teams better, a video perhaps that shows everything. I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but it's an option.

This post intentionally short as possible so people will read it.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that few people use teams, but those people produce most of the goods?
Or do you mean that teams are not widely used, period?

If it is the former, then I can accept that the market will correct itself.

If it is the latter, then... an experiment for you:
Look at the build cost for T2 Ships
Look at the sell price.

You will notice that with an index of 2.0 or greater (requires very minimal activity by one person to achieve). Most lose ISK to produce, and have for months. If, as you suggest, few people use teams then people are selling at a loss endlessly.

This means you are claiming two mutually exclusive things to be true, ie:
- Relatively few things are produced with teams
- The market will correct rationally

I like the concept of Teams but I think it should be taken further down the rabbit hole to be what it should be.

Allow teams to be made of actual players. Applying their skills and brain power to public/corp/alliance jobs by offering their manufacturing/research slots up for prices based on standings at designated locations (similar to setting a clone station so that their ability to apply skills are locked to an area/region).



for example

Player A has the ability to manage 10 manufacturing jobs with his brain power they decided to contract out 5 of them to their corp for 1,000,000 isk per hour. They then assign their "industrial assistance communication node" to a station in Region ABC. From this node their skills can reach the entire region.

Player B is a member of Player A's corp and is manufacturing sprockets. They want to build 100 sprockets which takes 24 hours but they want them in less time than that so they go into their industry window and look up available Industry team members. They don't want to use public teams so they set their filter to corp and narrow down the list. they then select an available agent based on his stats and wage and decide to hire Player A. Once player A's skills are "applied" to the quote Player B can see that it will significantly drop down the manufacturing time/material requirements.

HOORAY TEAMWORK! \o/

Notes:

I would recommend significant benefits to this process since many hands make light work. However as with all things too many people working on the same thing does create inefficiencies (reduced returns similar to module stacking mechanics)

So the first team assistance member applies all of their skill benefits to the job, while the second only applies 75% then so on and so forth. I do recommend that the amount of team members is not capped and here is why.

Brute force works.

Imagine the pride and impact of 100 members working together to brute force research on a BPO giving their Alliance an edge when it comes to a new BPO being forced to its highest levels as fast as possible. the mechanics not broken because 100 active people are sacrificing their research slots. Its just teamwork on a massive scale.

I would say that the special "industrial assistance communication node" cannot be moved while you have active assistance going on.

I would say within the industrial window you would have a special tab for managing your industrial team assistance such as setting rates per standing as well as the standings you offer your services to (public, corp, alliance) along with how many of manufacturing/research slots you're offering up

I would say that once your brain is committed to the project you are locked in until the installed job is either finished or canceled (something something lore, something something terriblebadideayankingyourbrainoutofquantumcomputernetwork)

This would create a whole new industry of people offering their services to help out the highest bidder. The higher your skills trained the more you could charge. Flooded regions would drive the costs down but quieter regions with less players offering their skills would have higher costs as well as depending where you were loading the job lower skill assistants may not be able to reach your area. this would mean that groups would pick their hubs and members would most likely install their nodes at these areas creating the various manufacturing and research hot spots CCP was looking for.


This would encourage people to invest in manufacturing and research skills creating a whole new competitive market of active industry players.

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All grammar and spelling errors are intentional too let you know this wasn't typed by a robot -Spam

You are doing it wrong then. It's not the mechanic's fault if you cannot calculate your profits of your items without the team and then subtract what you would pay for the team. Plus, you don't pay more than a couple of hundred thousands or millions for the teams to begin with. I got my first team (a 0.5% ME for small class ships) for 800k ISK. That was not even 1% of my total profits of all the jobs combined where I could use the team and only a fraction of the cost reduction by the team. A couple of months ago I bid "accidentally" 19M on a team (2.5% reduction for cap production); got it and the mere cost reduction due to the bonus of that team on 1 of the build caps was higher than the bid. In addition, it seemed to me that I drew some people into my preferred production plant, which in the end increased the CI a bit and cost me a couple of millions more on the Job cost, but that was still outweighed by the team's bonus.

You , therefore, might want to blame your own lack of foresight, capacity to calculate properly, judge properly and bid properly (especially whether or not to bid at all) for the failure of your teams than the teams themselves.

having teams as multiple players benefiting on an industry job means that who ever has the most alts has the cheapest products. You cant diffrentiate between a player and an alt, unless it requires some kind of mini game or what ever that requires both players to do a thing at the same time. But that would be even worse lol.

Also on the sniping of teams thing. I really wanted a team that came out late my time. So i just looked how much profit that team would make me in a week. And bid that amount of money on it. And look when i wake up my system is the proud owner of a nice shiney team. Only takes a week to earn back that cash and after that im rolling in the dough.

I like the idea of making our own teams beeing able to spend as much ISK on it to make the team you like. But I would realy hate to see that a team you create would be only for you or your corp. I have my own team of people building for me and they are in their own corp. If they cant benefit from the team that I would make that would suck so much

Rather than removing teams, simplify them as follows:

Teams should give a single bonus (not four), randomise the size of the bonus with exceptionally high bonus being exceptionally rare but possible and very high cap on possible bonus (just decreasing probability).

Then remove all the possible bonuses other than material efficiency for each specific item/category (remove the larger group categories too).

Dump the per-system bidding and make it a personal auction, winner takes all.

Much simpler, still adds interesting meta gameplay.