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Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp! 2.0

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#421 - 2014-12-18 09:49:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


What trick you talk about? Where is it usable nowadays ? I suppose you are talking about shield tempest with neuts to kill capitals as a cannon fooder thing to throw and collect insurance later...

The typhoon can drop 1 launcher to fit 2 neuts and do same DPS (in fact a tiny bit more) as a tempest but with PURE damage type (advantage) but smaller and more nimble . You can do the same with the raven!!! In fact if you drop 2 turrets fromt he mega to field Neuts, it does only 90 dps less than the tempest!!!!

Even if the tempest was slightly superior on this VERY Limited trick scenario (that it is not) it would still not be enough to justify its existance.

I must laugh at anyone that thinks that a ship is balanced because at a single NICHE and rare usage.. it can do 90 dps more than a mega that has dropped 2 of its turrets to fit the same neuting capability. All whiel the mega can be easily used as a INFITENLY superior ship in the other 99.5% of eve situations.

And what is the speed that you speak that it has and the geddon do not? is not as you need an extra 150m/s to bump a capital ship, and ALL battleships are too slow to have their mobility matter against smaller ships. It is a VERY minor advantage that does not compensate the MASSIVE disadvantage everywhere else.

The geddon and domi are still far superior on that role, by sheer capability of bringing MORE neuts with same DPS or WAY more neuts with a bit less dps and fielding much more EHP at same time.

The tempest only trick is to resemble superficially a ship that was in a completely different size class of a completely different metagame? wow amazing role.. almost as relevant as having a bonus to festival launchers

In the last 1 year, I have seen only 1 tempest .. only one!! The only battleships more rare nowadays is the scorpion.


This just comes over as a rant from a pilot with near zero battleship experience.

In the last year I have seen not a single rook and just one falcon. I guess these ships are also useless? Hell how many times have you seen a solo phoenix? Not once I bet. Or how about a marauder actively hunting for targets? Sentinels, where for art thou?

Just because you personally don't see them and can't figure out how to use them does not mean they are underpowered. The very fact that you have no idea what I am talking about in terms of the pest shows that you are not in a position to be talking about changing it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#422 - 2014-12-18 10:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


What trick you talk about? Where is it usable nowadays ? I suppose you are talking about shield tempest with neuts to kill capitals as a cannon fooder thing to throw and collect insurance later...

The typhoon can drop 1 launcher to fit 2 neuts and do same DPS (in fact a tiny bit more) as a tempest but with PURE damage type (advantage) but smaller and more nimble . You can do the same with the raven!!! In fact if you drop 2 turrets fromt he mega to field Neuts, it does only 90 dps less than the tempest!!!!

Even if the tempest was slightly superior on this VERY Limited trick scenario (that it is not) it would still not be enough to justify its existance.

I must laugh at anyone that thinks that a ship is balanced because at a single NICHE and rare usage.. it can do 90 dps more than a mega that has dropped 2 of its turrets to fit the same neuting capability. All whiel the mega can be easily used as a INFITENLY superior ship in the other 99.5% of eve situations.

And what is the speed that you speak that it has and the geddon do not? is not as you need an extra 150m/s to bump a capital ship, and ALL battleships are too slow to have their mobility matter against smaller ships. It is a VERY minor advantage that does not compensate the MASSIVE disadvantage everywhere else.

The geddon and domi are still far superior on that role, by sheer capability of bringing MORE neuts with same DPS or WAY more neuts with a bit less dps and fielding much more EHP at same time.

The tempest only trick is to resemble superficially a ship that was in a completely different size class of a completely different metagame? wow amazing role.. almost as relevant as having a bonus to festival launchers

In the last 1 year, I have seen only 1 tempest .. only one!! The only battleships more rare nowadays is the scorpion.


This just comes over as a rant from a pilot with near zero battleship experience.

In the last year I have seen not a single rook and just one falcon. I guess these ships are also useless? Hell how many times have you seen a solo phoenix? Not once I bet. Or how about a marauder actively hunting for targets? Sentinels, where for art thou?

Just because you personally don't see them and can't figure out how to use them does not mean they are underpowered. The very fact that you have no idea what I am talking about in terms of the pest shows that you are not in a position to be talking about changing it.



A aaa sure near zero battleship experience based on my HIGH SEC MERC character? You know an environment where using a battleship ( excluding pirate ones, geddon and domi) means you are an idiot? You realize almost all our characters are alts of one of the major 0.0 alliances? Even with this char I have plenty of experience exploding battleships.. and the clear factual experience that they are nothing but PREY! You think bringing a fictional argument without even presenting it is a good way to defend a case? You know.. there is a reason why goons got the fame they have ... you are just helping ... Being a bigger cane is irrelevant! If that was good, the fleet cane would still be used.. but it is NOT!

it sis not ME that does not see a GOOD way to use them. It is basically all PVP community that does not see worth to use battleships as a good solution , bar a few exceptions. You are not wiser than the majority of eve, much on the contrary based on how you expose your ideas supported by fallacies and personal perception. Anedoctal evidence of 1 or 2 players that use them does not make the ship really effective. I know a few players that hunt exclusively with ventures.. and that does not make it a good pvp ship (just a good bait)

Just to give you examples as YOU know much less about the reality of the game than you think. I see marauders hunting for targets at least once every 3-4 days. They are very common on low sec zones where no huge group lives, and very common on high sec wars (that are still WAY more high skill pvp than pressign F1 at fleet comanders orders) I see sentinels more commonly than any other non interceptor frigate! They are quite popular in small scale pvp (small scale is not 50 people), the fact hat they are not used in 0.0 does not mean they are not used at all.

Rooks I agree are nearly useless, because falcons are plain superior for 99% of the realistic combat scenarios. The rook is in the very same position of the tempest. It is cast in shadows by a ship that is better in the majority of the scenarios, adn the scenarios where it is better, it is so rare that is not worth to buy one just for that chance. That doe snot make the tempest less in need of a new role just because other ships are in even worse position. Your other example the phoenix.. yes the dread the 99% of eve regarded as uselles of years.. maybe that matches with the fact that is the least use one?


When a ship is almost not used it may means that 1) its horrible 2) its is more expensive than it should be 3) other ship(s) cover its usage envelope better 4)a very particular characteristic of the metagame make them not desired.

On the tempest case, clearly it is not 2 (because its price is roughly same as others) and it is not 4 (because this has been kept as a constant since Incursion age If my memory serves me right).

So either the ship is horrible.. or its roles are covered by others in a better way. That is the case for both the tempest, rook and a few other ships. All ships that should get attention.


When the majority of the people that can think in eve have an opinion..a nd basically only you have a different opinion.. something is wrong.. biased.. or plainly trolling

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2014-12-18 10:19:24 UTC
I can see the argument from all sides here and I do see flaws in Battleships.

The Typhoon:
Other than torps (and in general the missile system requiring a large redesign) I can't really see anything wrong with this ship. It works.

The Tempest:
Is it okay to accept that this ship is a Battlecruiser dressed in Battleship clothing?
Is it okay that this ship has a double damage bonus and still lacks punch?

The Maelstrom:
Is it okay to accept that the Minmatar Battleship designed for solo/small gang stuff is used primarily as a fleet alpha platform?

For me, the roles should be far more clearly defined. Minmatar favour the "Attack" style of ships which is why they have two "Attack Battleships" (ABS's) and one "Combat Battleship" (CBS).

I think the Maelstrom should be addressed first. This ship should be the shield equivalent of the Hyperion. The Hyperion is a CBS they got almost exactly right (if you ignore the common issues with all BS's relative to other ship classes). It's only flaw being a little tight on CPU.
So if we "Hyperionize" the Maelstrom we would:
Remove 2 turret hardpoints and increase the RoF bonus to 10% / level to compensate for the loss of two turrets (7% less turret dps than 8 guns with 5% RoF bonus). Adding enough bandwidth for an extra heavy drone removes the loss in DPS if this is required but I don't think it is.
Remove a high slot and push it to a mid slot as this ship is supposed to be the king of active shield tanking it allows it to be able to fit a web without sacrificing it's shield tank.
A small CPU buff
The Maelstrom then gains a Utility High. A better slot layout and the ability to use all of it's low slots instead of welding a Co-Pro in one of them.

Now the Tempest:
If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout.
What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.

What do you think?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#424 - 2014-12-18 10:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Kagura Nikon wrote:



A aaa sure near zero battleship experience based on my HIGH SEC MERC character? You know an environment where using a battleship ( excluding pirate ones, geddon and domi) means you are an idiot? You realize almost all our characters are alts of one of the major 0.0 alliances? Even with this char I have plenty of experience exploding battleships.. and the clear factual experience that they are nothing but PREY! You think bringing a fictional argument without even presenting it is a good way to defend a case? You know.. there is a reason why goons got the fame they have ... you are just helping ... Being a bigger cane is irrelevant! If that was good, the fleet cane would still be used.. but it is NOT!

it sis not ME that does not see a GOOD way to use them. It is basically all PVP community that does not see worth to use battleships as a good solution , bar a few exceptions. You are not wiser than the majority of eve, much on the contrary based on how you expose your ideas supported by fallacies and personal perception. Anedoctal evidence of 1 or 2 players that use them does not make the ship really effective. I know a few players that hunt exclusively with ventures.. and that does not make it a good pvp ship (just a good bait)

Just to give you examples as YOU know much less about the reality of the game than you think. I see marauders hunting for targets at least once every 3-4 days. They are very common on low sec zones where no huge group lives, and very common on high sec wars (that are still WAY more high skill pvp than pressign F1 at fleet comanders orders) I see sentinels more commonly than any other non interceptor frigate! They are quite popular in small scale pvp (small scale is not 50 people), the fact hat they are not used in 0.0 does not mean they are not used at all.

Rooks I agree are nearly useless, because falcons are plain superior for 99% of the realistic combat scenarios. The rook is in the very same position of the tempest. It is cast in shadows by a ship that is better in the majority of the scenarios, adn the scenarios where it is better, it is so rare that is not worth to buy one just for that chance. That doe snot make the tempest less in need of a new role just because other ships are in even worse position. Your other example the phoenix.. yes the dread the 99% of eve regarded as uselles of years.. maybe that matches with the fact that is the least use one?


When a ship is almost not used it may means that 1) its horrible 2) its is more expensive than it should be 3) other ship(s) cover its usage envelope better 4)a very particular characteristic of the metagame make them not desired.

On the tempest case, clearly it is not 2 (because its price is roughly same as others) and it is not 4 (because this has been kept as a constant since Incursion age If my memory serves me right).

So either the ship is horrible.. or its roles are covered by others in a better way. That is the case for both the tempest, rook and a few other ships. All ships that should get attention.


When the majority of the people that can think in eve have an opinion..a nd basically only you have a different opinion.. something is wrong.. biased.. or plainly trolling



Its not the entire PvP community its just a handful of you on a forum debating with one guy with vastly more experience.

Again you show in your reply that you have very little experience in the ships. I'm not basing my thoughts on your killboard record for this character but upon your responses to me. Again, you say the rook is a poor ship, yet I know for a fact that it is the best ECM boat for solo work. You say the phoenix is useless yet I know its downright deadly to subcaps due to its ability to alpha cruisers and BC which is why I am currently training for one for roaming.

See the difference between you and me that I have flown these ships for years and in ways most have never dreamed of. You meanwhile have flown one or two and not often with bad results.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#425 - 2014-12-18 10:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Spugg Galdon wrote:


Now the Tempest:
If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout.
What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.

What do you think?


Going off memory, with a tracking bonus I would be able to get near med auto tracking on such a ship. You have to remember these ships operate at longer ranges than blasters do which makes tracking of targets easier on their guns. When you load up sabot, tracking mod and pop a drug you will be getting some crazy numbers.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2014-12-18 12:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
baltec1 wrote:

Going off memory, with a tracking bonus I would be able to get near med auto tracking on such a ship. You have to remember these ships operate at longer ranges than blasters do which makes tracking of targets easier on their guns. When you load up sabot, tracking mod and pop a drug you will be getting some crazy numbers.


I think we would need to look at more aspects other than the tracking number but from my understanding of AC design is that they can:
They outrange blasters to be able to kite blaster boats
They out track pulse lasers to be able to get under the tracking of pulse laser boats

From what I can tell, if a 7.5% tracking bonus was applied, the tracking would be on par with Large Blasters but not as good as medium AC's. A shield fit using TE's would be able to achieve close to (but not superior at all) tracking to a tracking bonused Large Blaster boat (Megathron) that wasn't using tracking mods and was using equivalent tiered weaponry. An armour fit Tempest would struggle to get that kind of tracking without making serious sacrifices.

I don't believe the tracking bonus would break the ship. I think it would just improve it's role as an ABS with it being able to use it's mobility more.

In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse

I've left the Raven out of this comparison as it's a special snowflake in the ABS class sharing it's spot only with the Typhoon.

Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs).
The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#427 - 2014-12-18 12:50:49 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse




Which makes the pest a great all round ship.

Spugg Galdon wrote:


Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs).
The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.


Alpha platform is the Maels job.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2014-12-18 13:44:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse




Which makes the pest a great all round ship.


So you agree with me on the tracking bonus idea?

baltec1 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


Then think about the alpha strike advantage the Tempest would posess in a fleet role. It would out alpha all other ships whilst still keeping it's two utility high slots (Firewall protection from bombs).
The Tempst would then have a fleet role and a solo/small gang role.


Alpha platform is the Maels job.


However like I said above, the Mael would become more like the Hyperion and use it's active tanking bonus. Right now the only thing people are taking advantage of with the Mael is the fact it has 8 guns. The Tornado can do the same Alpha with better projection and mobility but lacks the tank of the Mael. However in large scale fleet environments it's essentially trading ship for ship so I'm not sure how effective a larger buffer is.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#429 - 2014-12-18 14:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Spugg Galdon wrote:


So you agree with me on the tracking bonus idea?


No, for the reasons already stated.

Right now I can get 0.106 rad from 800mm autos, this is the same as the base stats for 425 autos, a med weapon. 425s with skills applied come to 0.145, I can get 0.14 rad from duel 425s on the pest right now. This is just using cheap t2 gear and faction ammo. A 37.5% bonus to tracking speeds would indeed be far too powerful, so would a 25% bonus. The ship simply does not need it.

Spugg Galdon wrote:



However like I said above, the Mael would become more like the Hyperion and use it's active tanking bonus. Right now the only thing people are taking advantage of with the Mael is the fact it has 8 guns. The Tornado can do the same Alpha with better projection and mobility but lacks the tank of the Mael. However in large scale fleet environments it's essentially trading ship for ship so I'm not sure how effective a larger buffer is.


There is a very good reason we used the Mael in Alpha fleet and it is very much because of its beefier tank and superior fitting room. Arty platform is the maels thing, the pest is the autocannon boat.
Jacob Katruun
Kiith Naabal
#430 - 2014-12-18 19:15:12 UTC
Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...

In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4

A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.

-Jacob Katruun
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#431 - 2014-12-18 19:29:39 UTC
Jacob Katruun wrote:
Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...

In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4

A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.

-Jacob Katruun

How would we balance this against existing logi?

Possibilities that occur to me include:

Limit it's targeting to a low number, like 2 maximum targets.
(This assumes it can operate cap stable, and possibly offers greater repping than the logi cruisers)
(No significant DPS potential, it is a repping boat only)

OR

Limit it to one or two reppers.
(This assumes it will be less effective than a logi cruiser, but creates a spider tanking option possibly balanced by low buffer tank)
(This assumes combat ability, and is using a spider tank instead of the expected previous one)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#432 - 2014-12-18 19:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#433 - 2014-12-18 21:23:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.


If they made a battleship class logi boat the repping power should be what the current logi cruisers have with an emphesis on large reps and the logi cruisers toned down and all about medium reps like the tech one general logis.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#434 - 2014-12-18 21:42:38 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.


If they made a battleship class logi boat the repping power should be what the current logi cruisers have with an emphesis on large reps and the logi cruisers toned down and all about medium reps like the tech one general logis.

If we aren't going to define something new, and what we have is working, I do not see any particular value swapping hulls to do the same job.

Especially not in the opposite direction from more recent changes.

Now, if we want to define that T1 BS hulls are the ones doing this, and are operating on the same level as T2 logi cruisers, that may have some potential.
I see that as adding a new method to solve an old problem, and exchanging the cruiser set for the BS set of pros & cons.

In any case, I see no reason to modify cruisers out of a role, just to make room for a larger hull instead.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#435 - 2014-12-18 23:47:10 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I can see the argument from all sides here and I do see flaws in Battleships.

The Typhoon:
Other than torps (and in general the missile system requiring a large redesign) I can't really see anything wrong with this ship. It works.

The Tempest:
Is it okay to accept that this ship is a Battlecruiser dressed in Battleship clothing?
Is it okay that this ship has a double damage bonus and still lacks punch?

The Maelstrom:
Is it okay to accept that the Minmatar Battleship designed for solo/small gang stuff is used primarily as a fleet alpha platform?

For me, the roles should be far more clearly defined. Minmatar favour the "Attack" style of ships which is why they have two "Attack Battleships" (ABS's) and one "Combat Battleship" (CBS).

I think the Maelstrom should be addressed first. This ship should be the shield equivalent of the Hyperion. The Hyperion is a CBS they got almost exactly right (if you ignore the common issues with all BS's relative to other ship classes). It's only flaw being a little tight on CPU.
So if we "Hyperionize" the Maelstrom we would:
Remove 2 turret hardpoints and increase the RoF bonus to 10% / level to compensate for the loss of two turrets (7% less turret dps than 8 guns with 5% RoF bonus). Adding enough bandwidth for an extra heavy drone removes the loss in DPS if this is required but I don't think it is.
Remove a high slot and push it to a mid slot as this ship is supposed to be the king of active shield tanking it allows it to be able to fit a web without sacrificing it's shield tank.
A small CPU buff
The Maelstrom then gains a Utility High. A better slot layout and the ability to use all of it's low slots instead of welding a Co-Pro in one of them.

Now the Tempest:
If the Tempest dropped it's RoF bonus for a tracking bonus this would put the Tempest truly into the ABS role (ABS's kind of need application bonuses). You can then double the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level and leave the slot layout.
What does this achieve? Well first, it doesn't really nerf the ships DPS that much whilst retaining it's awesome utility. The tracking bonus lets it use it's mobility more and is a very useful bonus. Third, a 10% damage bonus applies exceptionally in the "Fleet" role as this will give the Tempest an enormous alpha potential.

What do you think?



On one thing you are wrong. The maesltrom was MADE to be a fleet ship. I remember that CCP tuxford stated that CLEARLY when he presented the ship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#436 - 2014-12-18 23:48:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
If anything logi needs nerfed from current levels, our fleets are already nigh invincible vs smaller organisations.



That is one of the few thigns I agree with you.

LOGis are TOO POWEFUL.


They need to be droped to medium repairers /trasnferers, and they need to get a bit more cruiser normal signature radius.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#437 - 2014-12-18 23:49:06 UTC
Jacob Katruun wrote:
Logistics Battleships is something I hear suggested repeatedly...

In my logi experience, I constantly finding myself wishing I had a ship with 8 remote shield reps instead of 4

A Logi battleship class like this would be neat to see, and greatly appreciated by many.

-Jacob Katruun



So appreciated that people ranted massively on the SOE battleship threading complainign how useless a Logi battleship was?

I don't think so... They had to super buff theship dozen times to peopel find it acceptable.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#438 - 2014-12-18 23:50:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse




Which makes the pest a great all round ship.




A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#439 - 2014-12-19 04:43:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse




Which makes the pest a great all round ship.




A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good.




EVE is not about min maxing, its about using the tools you have effectivly. When you take the pest package as a whole you find you have a very adaptable hull that will do well in more situations than some of the other ships quoted.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#440 - 2014-12-19 08:58:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the end with a tracking bonus, compared to it's counterparts in close range weapon fits:

In terms of damage projection:
Apocalypse > Tempest > Megathron

In terms of tracking:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalyspe

In terms of raw damage potential:
Megathron > Tempest > Apocalypse

In terms of versatility:
Tempest > Megathron > Apopcalypse




Which makes the pest a great all round ship.




A ship that is mediocre at everything is FAILURE. Eve is about MIN MAXING. andyou KNOW it, you are just trolling if you post anything on the lines that being a jack of all trades and master of none being something good.




EVE is not about min maxing, its about using the tools you have effectivly. When you take the pest package as a whole you find you have a very adaptable hull that will do well in more situations than some of the other ships quoted.



IF that was true people would be using it a lot.. they are not.. because.. that statement is plain WRONG! Defeating someone in any combat in real life or eve is being far superior to the enemy at one scenario and forcing them into that scenario, that is warfare 101. Not worth discussing that. Its plain and unavoidable truth in eve , other games and real life combat. Just take as an example ww2 MC 202 family of italian fighters, they were good.. at everything, but were not excelent at anything. They were a COMPLETE DISASTER in field.

Not being too bad on some things is somewhat relevant and important so that enemies do not have an easy time cornering you into their advantage zone. But when you are not good at anything that does not help.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"