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Dev blog: Industry & Teams - The Removal of Teams

First post
Author
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-12-18 02:19:00 UTC
In the past I had industry jobs going almost all the time. Everything from ammo to tech 2 capitals. I've invented I've built, I've done pretty much everything except Tech 3 I never got into that.

Ever since you guys changed everything I've essentially not touched industry. Fitting right in with your current trend the industry UI is prettier and less functional. I recently purchased a Bowhead BPO and started researching it thinking I'd build some but as I'm going through the motions trying to ramp up capitol ship production again I'm just at the point where I'm ready to give up and sell the BPO.

I'm not sure if it's sour grapes or if the UI really is that bad. I don't know if I have a common perspective or a unique one. AlI that I can say is that I've not even seen the team UI and in the past I invented and built from moon goo my own Jump Freighter as well as Rorquals and Carriers for sale. Since the changes pretty much nothing. I haven't even barely purchased much from the market and I don't think I've sold anything and I can't even tell you why.

All that I can say is that I used to like industry and now I have two accounts that I basically don't put time on, those would me my two industry toons.

I wish that I had better advice all that I can say is I don't even know what teams really did, I won't miss them and it does not surprise me that no one used them.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#82 - 2014-12-18 03:10:27 UTC
I will miss teams.

Mainly because the team interface gave a good deal of intel as to which systems had big production job batches happening in them, letting you know which POSes might be worth ransoming.

On the plus side - less teams = less production throughput gamewide, which in a game economy with a massive overproduction crisis is a good thing.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-12-18 04:21:53 UTC
There are industry teams?
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#84 - 2014-12-18 04:55:47 UTC
Banlish wrote:
Contract work between players
Let players create jobs like contracts for others to work on, think of an industry job ready to go, but it needs another player to come by and click 'create' with the right skills as well as tying up their character instead of mine. I'd pay good isk for that, something I think could open new opportunities for players.

This actually sounds pretty cool, similar to Courier Contracts for Haulers, Manufacturing/Research Contracts for Industrialists, So the Contractor puts in BPO/BPCs, and the items required for it, sets times to accept and complete(May have to set a minimum time for completion above the production time to avoid scams), a Reward and a Collateral, Then Contractee gets a Plastic Wrapped package that can be installed like any other manufacturing/research job, once it is done they deliver the job and complete the contract.

Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#85 - 2014-12-18 05:02:46 UTC
I never looked at teams when they first came out, I was not doing much industry. After that I was doing quite a bit of industry, but had forgotten all about teams. When you announced the removal of teams I took another look at them and then realized what I was missing out on, in savings or time and now using them till they are gone.

I think the problem about teams was initially was the roll out and perhaps what they did or how they functioned was not explained well enough, or just bad timing on my part for not paying attention at the time.

Cost may appear high to a part time industrialist for the good teams, but you could pick up the lesser teams dirt cheap and still do very well using them. Production on a large scale and the better teams are worth the price depending on what you are doing.

I am sad to see the teams go, but realize that with so many CCP employees moving on to greener pastures time and effort to improve this feature has no choice but to go to the back burner so more important features can be improved or developed.

I look forward to the time when teams are brought back when the attention of a ccp dev team can be devoted to fine tuning the feature.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#86 - 2014-12-18 05:16:17 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
ANYONE WHO SAYS TEAMS AREN'T WORTH THE PRICE YOU PAY




YOU DON'T BUILD ENOUGH


TEAMS SCALE, THE MORE YOU BUILD, THE MORE YOU SAVE AND THE MORE YOU CAN PAY FOR A TEAM AND STILL SAVE

This is probably why the teams usage is in single digit percentages.

The majority of jobs are most likely people manufacturing for themselves/corp and not major producers like yourself.

I'd be interested to see who is using teams and who isn't, and how many jobs they put through a month on average, and how many of the same job they are doing.

I do agree with a number of people in this thread that teams weren't used allot because of the issues actually obtaining a team to use in the first place, I'm looking at you Auction Sniping. But I also found that there were a few people that didn't even know how to bid on a team because they hadn't noticed/didn't know what the "Team Chartering" link at the bottom of the Teams tab, and thus only used teams that were already available in their system.

The other side was that the only useful teams were the Manufacturing ME teams. The research teams were only useful if you were researching the last couple of levels on a BPO where it reduced the time by a day or more, because frankly unless a team reduced the research by that much it wasn't any benefit because of how often/long people play.
Sara Seraph
Sara Inc
#87 - 2014-12-18 05:26:28 UTC
My biggest problems with teams?

I would forget to use them.

So, I forget to bid on them, or if I did , I would forget to check if I won or lost till the notification arrived. Which by that time, I generally already began the job.

If a fellow manufacturer in the same system had won a team, I forget to even look for a team, until after I hit the "start" button.

The most I looked at teams, was when the lines were in full production, and I would dream of what I would be doing next, and how a team would assist my endeavors.

Lastly;
I would not move to the next constellation to do manufacturing, since I already have locations and routines established. Call it lazy or whatever... it just isn't happening, except under very specific situation(s).



The first part is totally my fault and I have no clue why, but the location part... I have my standings in NPC stations, I have my suppliers and I have the local market, and clients already established.



In spite of the above, I really like the idea of teams and the potential for adding this feature to PI, POS, and whatever else helps us interact with the NPC environments of New Eden.
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#88 - 2014-12-18 07:01:57 UTC
While the implementation of teams was bad they did counter some of the flaws in the rest of the changes if taken in isolation eg:
- No relevant penalty for building small items - even with an index of 9.8,
- No reason to progress to higher tech production anymore - greater investment for lower profit

The removal of any barrier to entry (skills and slots) - killed almost all profit for t2/t3 without the use of teams (especially for large producers, T2 specifically loses twice, on component and hull teams).

Now with the removal of teams they are now unravelling the remaining industry changes in the expansion. I have no idea how CCP plan to fix this without expending the time they claim not to have.

We shall see, I suppose.

At a minimum the skill requirement for producing higher tech level ships should have remained. It makes sense for both practical (rate limiting) and lore (higher technology requires greater knowledge) reasons.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#89 - 2014-12-18 07:41:02 UTC
Fifth Blade wrote:
While the implementation of teams was bad they did counter some of the flaws in the rest of the changes if taken in isolation eg:
- No relevant penalty for building small items - even with an index of 9.8,
- No reason to progress to higher tech production anymore - greater investment for lower profit

The removal of any barrier to entry (skills and slots) - killed almost all profit for t2/t3 without the use of teams (especially for large producers, T2 specifically loses twice, on component and hull teams).

Now with the removal of teams they are now unravelling the remaining industry changes in the expansion. I have no idea how CCP plan to fix this without expending the time they claim not to have.

We shall see, I suppose.

At a minimum the skill requirement for producing higher tech level ships should have remained. It makes sense for both practical (rate limiting) and lore (higher technology requires greater knowledge) reasons.



its now the catch phrase excuse now used ... to fix this will now take much time and or major "resources" to resolve..

HE and They say the same thing about the rorqual.. just notice their pattern its all there.

I fully agree with your comment on the ridiculous thought process they put into skill requirements for higher tech.. but again.. that was HIS vision.. his Vision was so out there he couldn't even see his own vision cause now he's gone from ccp... I think he needed new glasses.
Miranda Katarn
Stark Industriez
Stark Enterprises
#90 - 2014-12-18 07:59:08 UTC
Thank god

Useless feature was useless.
Azmith
New-Roots
#91 - 2014-12-18 09:38:59 UTC
I actually used teams quite a lot. They allow you to get quite a nice margin on high value items like bs, marauder, caps if you get a good ME team that is.

Its even worth ferrying all the materials 6 jumps or more from your trade hub if there is a good team there. The reason being that if you get one of the really good team like say 6.5% ME on a job that has a total volume of 6 bil then this saves you a whooping 390 million isk. This allows you to easily bid 400-800 mil on such a team which is exactly what happens.

A team like this in a system with a low enough cost index actually allows for a production of armageddons again while making a tiny profit (those of you who know about the massive flooding of armageddons from the materials change will know what I'm talking about)

I do agree that the auction system is broken. There should be a way to set a blind maximum bid that automatically matches other bids until they go above just like there is on real auction platforms particularly one big one *nudge nudge wink wink*

Its also true that nothing but ME is really useful at least for products where you build multiple runs. Because using multiple characters you can now easily split up that run into multiple smaller ones for an even larger bonus to manufacturing time due to having an infinite amount of industry lanes.

The only place where time teams make sense IMHO is capitals and other things that take a long time on a single run.


I think however that the decision to completely remove teams based on only a single digit of manufacturing jobs using them is a bit strange. I would rather be interested in the monetary value of these jobs taken together vs the value of the other 9x%.

I would bet that the money put into manufacturing with teams is proportionally higher PER job than for jobs without teams. See people manufacturing their own ammo from reprocessed loot or stuff like that where no one would ever use a team for.

I think as has been suggested allowing people to BUILD their own teams for personal use from single specialists recruited on the market would be a great idea. Make specialists producable by building universitys on planets. Also make speciailists not vanish over time but per use like the old RAM. In keeping with the Lore you set with teams using boosters that fry their brains after a single burst of glory. Make them one time use like decryptors for invention. This makes it a one time booster to manufacturing jobs that can actually be produced by players. This I think would decrease the complexity for the users while at the same time enriching the industry landscape.
EnForceR Zealot
The Corp With No Names
Brothers of Tangra
#92 - 2014-12-18 09:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: EnForceR Zealot
CCP also remove shares, since nobody use them as you hoped.
Also, this dev blog is not clickable only in my launcher or you just don't want to read feedbacks about your fail?
Anathema Device
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2014-12-18 09:51:09 UTC
I never wanted the current team structure and I'm glad the current implementation is being removed.

I would like to see player industrial teams built along the lines of fleets i.e. equivalent structure to Fleet/Wing Commanders, Squad Leaders down to Squad members. Bonus flows down are based on the current fleet mechanic. Range of Industrial Fleet bonuses has system limitations like the current fleets. Anybody can be invited to join and how to handle declared enemies in the same squad or hierarchy is open for discussion. Science skills would flow down and may need a set of Leadership skills. Possibly use Industrial ships with Implants to provide higher boosts.

The aim is to foster co-operative team play at the System/Planet level for Industrialists and researchers
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#94 - 2014-12-18 09:51:47 UTC
Teams are absolutely essential for large-scale production. Which, presumably, is the problem.

The bidding/sniping mechanism was painfully stupid though.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#95 - 2014-12-18 10:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
You do not leave the game in a good shape for players as you remove a feature from the game that many players like and use. I does not matter to these players if they are not thousands, it does not matter to them if you have too high expectations and want thousands of players to use features. What matters to them is that you remove a gameplay feature from the game that they like and use a lot, and that gives them an edge over those players who don't dare to use it; henceforth, you just even out the field again, remove choice and make the game yet again more bland and less flavored.

The teams work and the auctions work in their particular way. People who complain about the sniping are just bad at either sniping or bidding on the right teams for their needs and they are bad at planning their activities and adjusting to the availability of teams they want to have. I have bid on a couple of teams and always got those I wanted or my secondary choices. I got this by sniping and because I could wait. Some players bid on teams way too early and show that there is a demand for them to other players. With teams removed this is a feature removed that allows for a variety of gameplay aspects, from advantages in industry, information gathering to cooperation between players. The UI for the teams works, auctions work, their application in the jobs works, everything works and is only in need for adjustments or better processes in case of the auctions. Nothing you would change on the teams would fundamentally change their behavior like the Industry changes in themselves did with their introduction. You can only make them better once you get back to Industry. Removing them just takes the pressure and the reminder away from your conscience that they are there and that you are definitely not finished with bettering the Industry part of the game. Leaving them ingame in their current state does no harm to the game and the players and as you can't change them as starkly as the industry in itself, also expectations of players can't be missed when they are adjusted at a later stage.

In conclusion: You leave Industry, the most important feature of the game, unfinished, you remove features of Industry which don't meet your exorbitantly high expectations and you move on to the next feature of the game that is indeed in dire need or change and a reset, leaving players to wonder whether you continue that very same path there as well, on which you started to walk with Industry: start something and leave it unfinished.
In addition to that I would also like to see some numbers. You use very vague wording when you try to justify your decisions on the removal of teams. Instead, I would like to see hard facts that support your only argument of "low usage": How many jobs were created with teams? Which teams are most popular? Which auctions were won with sniping, which with a more lengthy bidding process? How often are teams used once in a system? How many people use teams in a system? Are only people of the bidder corp using them or also other players? What is the ratio for that? And so on. I want facts.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Jaron Nal
Kane Tech Investment Group
#96 - 2014-12-18 10:49:23 UTC
In general I like the idea of teams.

I'm against removing them totally.
I think the main problem is the bidding system.

A idea to fix this is:

- reduce the auction time (maybe 2 days or even 1 day. This includes a much faster seedingtime etc.)

- maybe break the teams down to only have 2 boni. 1 general bonus and 1 focues bonus
So it is easier for a player to get a specific team because if you want for example a top team for starbases but is has aswell a top bonus for let's say attack cruisers you will not get the team because other guys are bidding for the attack cruiser bonus.


and the most important thing:
- do something against sniping. An idea from me was that there is a time before the auction ends(for example 1h).
After this time your bids don't cost 100%, they scale up with the time past.
So for example if there are only 30 mins left your bid would cost 200%.
If there are only 15 mins left it costs 400%.
And so on.
(Maybe the numbers have to be higher)

This system would give someone who really wants a team a a chance to get a team and not to get sniped in the last second.



So everything I want to say is:
Please don't remove the teams completly. Try to fix the problem of sniping and the auctionstime.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-12-18 11:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Vincent Athena wrote:
Well, I never used them. For much of my industry, they would not have helped, so there was no reason to. For the rest, it seemed to be a high complexity task for a chance at a small gain, and not worth the effort. I could get more gain by spending that time mining another load of ore.



Agreed.

Nice storyline idea became too much abstract RP with NPC for miserly gains.

If you reimplement, consider allowing significant gains but then you can temper that by allowing player to some how attack teams to decrease their effects. I am sure pirates would leap at new target for creating tears. Thus you would dangle a nice prize for industry but ensure that there was no guarantee that the time and ISK investment would actually turn into license to print ISK.

That is additional complexity should be a somewhat risky but potentially very profitable investment. Not tedious twiddling with yield equations for insignificant change.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#98 - 2014-12-18 11:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Proddy Scun wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Well, I never used them. For much of my industry, they would not have helped, so there was no reason to. For the rest, it seemed to be a high complexity task for a chance at a small gain, and not worth the effort. I could get more gain by spending that time mining another load of ore.

Agreed.

Nice storyline idea became too much abstract RP with NPC for miserly gains.

If you reimplement, consider allowing significant gains but then you can temper that by allowing player to some how attack teams to decrease their effects. I am sure pirates would leap at new target for creating tears. Thus you would dangle a nice prize for industry but ensure that there was no guarantee that the time and ISK investment would actually turn into license to print ISK.

That is additional complexity should be a somewhat risky but potentially very profitable investment. Not tedious twiddling with yield equations for insignificant change.

Complexity? What complexity do you mean? Bidding on a team is 2 clicks and a bit of keyboard piano. Selecting them is easy as the game preselects the possible teams for a task. Calculating their impact is easy as tools and spreadsheets take that over all the necessary calculations.

I also would not call 500M more profit in caps or a couple hundred more for small/medium ships per industry cycles in my case a "miserly [sic!] gain".

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-12-18 11:25:30 UTC
Also there is a bit of question as to whether teams are something intended mainly for

(1) big Null sec coalitions and alliances which have ways of raising real big ISK for very large stable groups.

or

(2) Empire player corps and alliance which on average are much smaller and not linked into stable coalitions able to raise astronomical venture ISK capital.


If answer 2 (where CCP itself says most industry remains) is to be a big part of the team usage -- consider a new type of contract.

A contract where various unassociated players, player corps and player alliance can all throw money in for some ordinarily unaffordable purchase (mainly teams to start). And if the ISK goal is not met by the deadline, the individual contributions are returned minus some administrative fees or %age.
Ren Kavik
Freyja Syndicate
The Initiative.
#100 - 2014-12-18 11:29:53 UTC
Teams where and still are a good idea.

Make the bonus worth the effort not the marginal decrease in production costs that it is now.

The market fluctuations determine the profitabillity of all items.

Fluctuations in the market range from 80% to 120% depending on the size of the items(larger items have smaller margins).

Form that perspective a bonus of a few percent to production with a team is almost worthless.

And lol you need to pay for the team to.

So yeah they are really worthless after you take that in to account.

What good are they in there current state?

MAKE IT WORTH DOING!

Or just remove them and throw them on the pile of unfinished projects.