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Fighters and Off Grid assist

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ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2014-12-17 15:30:14 UTC
We got a pair of billion isk proteus the other night... same ehp as the carrier, each with full fighter support....

I like this feature and fully endorse it!

No Worries
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2014-12-17 15:44:04 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
i don't know if this suggestion was made earlier (not going to dig trough 6 pages) but limiting the range seems a good fix to me, as fighters get all the benefits from drone mods and skills (range excluded) it could be an idea to implement just that.

so say a 500% bonus on drone range would be perfect with maxed skills (drone avionics and advanced drone avionics) you get 300 Km range on drones and fighters, which can be enhanced with drone control range augmentor rigs and or drone link augmentor modules this way you can control drones on a big range on grid but not everything on grid unless you use rigs and or high slots. i think having more range with normal drones as well is a nice but not OP thing.

this way you cant sit near pos shields and assist without any danger.


Or you could say you just have to be on grid to assign stuff. problem instantly solved

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#123 - 2014-12-17 18:13:05 UTC
4Jane Ashpool wrote:
Wow, there are some whiny, bitter sov holders in this thread, considering what you're doing is borderline exploit-territory - mis-using a design flaw to your advantage. If CCP wanted that sort of functionality, why do aggro timers exist to prevent the exact same thing being done on stations and gates?

Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
A Super that's on grid with a gate and ownzones my fleet when we jump in to it is 100% balanced, and neither I nor anybody I know has any problem with that whatsoever.


Well, except for the separate balance issue of fighters being able to instapop interceptors.


Yeeeeeaaaahhh that is a tad incongruous but my understanding is that they have to utterly gimp their fit to do that, so it's only really something that's workable in combination with the POS tanking. I could be wrong though.

corbexx wrote:
Or you could say you just have to be on grid to assign stuff. problem instantly solved


Absolutely my preferred solution.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#124 - 2014-12-17 18:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
^^ Yeah a fit that can insta blap frigs would severely gimp it on grid.

ChromeStriker wrote:
We got a pair of billion isk proteus the other night... same ehp as the carrier, each with full fighter support....

I like this feature and fully endorse it!


Nice - would be less bothered personally if I ran into something like that as atleast you have a chance of it being worthwhile to reship into something more appropriate to give them a fight.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#125 - 2014-12-17 19:35:53 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
i don't know if this suggestion was made earlier (not going to dig trough 6 pages) but limiting the range seems a good fix to me, as fighters get all the benefits from drone mods and skills (range excluded) it could be an idea to implement just that.

so say a 500% bonus on drone range would be perfect with maxed skills (drone avionics and advanced drone avionics) you get 300 Km range on drones and fighters, which can be enhanced with drone control range augmentor rigs and or drone link augmentor modules this way you can control drones on a big range on grid but not everything on grid unless you use rigs and or high slots. i think having more range with normal drones as well is a nice but not OP thing.

this way you cant sit near pos shields and assist without any danger.


Or you could say you just have to be on grid to assign stuff. problem instantly solved


no because then the carrier loses too much ground as a support vessel. i think that my suggestion is fair afterall it is a carrier it should be able to give good support (also with normal drones) but i agree it should be limited too on grid but with extended range (within the grid)

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#126 - 2014-12-17 19:37:37 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
We got a pair of billion isk proteus the other night... same ehp as the carrier, each with full fighter support....

I like this feature and fully endorse it!


that's nice but how will you feel about it after they fix T3 cruisers because the insane tank will disappear

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
IIFraII
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#127 - 2014-12-23 11:47:25 UTC
For those who though this is something used on a small scale only,
heres something for you: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26218828&nolimit

Also, ppl seem to be using this to nuke structures more quickly.

Bottom line is: this is affecting the game on all levels.
colera deldios
#128 - 2014-12-23 13:09:55 UTC
What I'm hearing is. Ooo noooo we brought 30 people with logistics, we don't want to PVP we just wan't easy kills/ganks. It's a perfectly valid mechanic I used it and it's not always effective Fighters die super fast and not to mention you risk a carrier/super getting dropped on which after you do it first time next time people will be ready for you and will go for your Nyx rather than your puny Slepnir.

It's a valid tactic to even out the odds. How about you stop sucking at PVP/Hunting and instead of asking for easy kills/ganks you put some work into a trap and next time you run into this guy you drop on him or you know just kill the Fighter which most ships can just instashot off the field.
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#129 - 2014-12-23 13:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
colera deldios wrote:
What I'm hearing is. Ooo noooo we brought 30 people with logistics


If TRECI has ever fielded a 30 man fleet I'll eat my hat. Big smile EDIT: OK maybe we have in wormholes somewhere. Our nullsec roams barely ever exceed 10men, no logistics. Much more commonly it's 6-8.


colera deldios wrote:
we don't want to PVP we just wan't easy kills/ganks. It's a perfectly valid mechanic I used it and it's not always effective Fighters die super fast and not to mention you risk a carrier/super getting dropped on which after you do it first time next time people will be ready for you and will go for your Nyx rather than your puny Slepnir.

It's a valid tactic to even out the odds. How about you stop sucking at PVP/Hunting and instead of asking for easy kills/ganks you put some work into a trap and next time you run into this guy you drop on him or you know just kill the Fighter which most ships can just instashot off the field.


Fighters have like cruiser + levels of EHP, they are actually not that easy to kill, particularly when their 2000 DPS is dunking your fleet. \Read the rest of the thread for more detailed rebuttals to your "kill fighters" or "lol u nub just kill teh super" thingies, they have both been addressed in detail.
colera deldios
#130 - 2014-12-23 15:02:48 UTC
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
What I'm hearing is. Ooo noooo we brought 30 people with logistics


If TRECI has ever fielded a 30 man fleet I'll eat my hat. Big smile EDIT: OK maybe we have in wormholes somewhere. Our nullsec roams barely ever exceed 10men, no logistics. Much more commonly it's 6-8.


colera deldios wrote:
we don't want to PVP we just wan't easy kills/ganks. It's a perfectly valid mechanic I used it and it's not always effective Fighters die super fast and not to mention you risk a carrier/super getting dropped on which after you do it first time next time people will be ready for you and will go for your Nyx rather than your puny Slepnir.

It's a valid tactic to even out the odds. How about you stop sucking at PVP/Hunting and instead of asking for easy kills/ganks you put some work into a trap and next time you run into this guy you drop on him or you know just kill the Fighter which most ships can just instashot off the field.


Fighters have like cruiser + levels of EHP, they are actually not that easy to kill, particularly when their 2000 DPS is dunking your fleet. \Read the rest of the thread for more detailed rebuttals to your "kill fighters" or "lol u nub just kill teh super" thingies, they have both been addressed in detail.


You can blap them off the field, you can easily out run them they MWD to their target then they drop out of MWD and orbit at something like 300ms, their optimal range is something like 3k. They are one crappy cruiser when Ishtar or Caracal can blap them off the field in 2-3 shots while outruning them.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#131 - 2014-12-23 16:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
colera deldios wrote:
and not to mention you risk a carrier/super getting dropped on which after you do it first time next time people will be ready for you and will go for your Nyx rather than your puny Slepnir.

It's a valid tactic to even out the odds. How about you stop sucking at PVP/Hunting and instead of asking for easy kills/ganks you put some work into a trap and next time you run into this guy you drop on him or you know just kill the Fighter which most ships can just instashot off the field.


Thats the thing - most of the time the super isn't at any realistic risk even if someone comes back next time to go for it - which is the crux of the complaints here. Fighter assignment is symptomatic rather than the problem itself.

Your posts appear to be showing a certain level of outdated knowledge of how this is being used - given the way the super/carrier is fit they can easily keep up with a fast cruiser (an ishtar doesn't have a hope of outrunning them in any way that is going to help it live long enough to kill any even assuming its left to run) and have enough optimal range that they can blap a MWD bloomed target as it moves away from them and transversal falls as they drop out of MWD and with 2-3 carriers worth they can even alpha tankier stuff - watch the video posted earlier on - and that is just a demonstration with a setup that is far from the max capabilities.

If you have say 10 fighters on you that is ~180K EHP worth of fighters in total and you'd have to kill or outrun a few before dps drops off significantly while they are usually assigned to a ship designed to counter that.
colera deldios
#132 - 2014-12-23 16:38:24 UTC
Rroff wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
and not to mention you risk a carrier/super getting dropped on which after you do it first time next time people will be ready for you and will go for your Nyx rather than your puny Slepnir.

It's a valid tactic to even out the odds. How about you stop sucking at PVP/Hunting and instead of asking for easy kills/ganks you put some work into a trap and next time you run into this guy you drop on him or you know just kill the Fighter which most ships can just instashot off the field.


Thats the thing - most of the time the super isn't at any realistic risk even if someone comes back next time to go for it - which is the crux of the complaints here.

Your posts appear to be showing a certain level of outdated knowledge of how this is being used - given the way the super/carrier is fit they can easily keep up with a fast cruiser and have enough optimal range that they can blap a MWD bloomed target as it moves away from them and transversal falls as they drop out of MWD and with 2-3 carriers worth they can even alpha tankier stuff - watch the video posted earlier on - and that is just a demonstration with a setup that is far from the max capabilities.



What I'm hearing is you wan't an already weak ship and a very expansive one at that. That alrady needs to be outside the POS to now be on grid do assign fighters this makes no sense someone paid some 30b for that ship I'm not saying that should buy him easy kills and god like power which it does not he can assign 10 fighters 15 at most but no sane person will risk his high slots for DCU II which don't even make sense to carry on a super carrier.

The point is it's very easy to outrun Fighters regardles of it's bonuses and it's even easier to shoot them off the field.

One of the easiest things to do si have people starburst and whoever has fighters on them just warp off fighters will follow him he can warp back to the field which will bug the fighters and player will have to recall them.

If you are smart this should never happen to you twice and if it does than it's your own fault for being stupid. Because first time it happens you get the name you get the pos and next time you warp a machariel on top of it and light a cyno for your friends.

And regardless if you are 0.0/WH/LS entity it will be pretty damn easy to kill it Lazerhawks, Shadow Cartel, BL, PL, NC even HK i think killed a Nyx.. all have demonstrated that it's pretty easy to kill suppers doing this I my self assigned fighters few times and stopped aftter I alsmost died dropping same people twice in ~3 weeks span.
Also it's pretty easy to defang 10 supers let alone 1. Go learn to PVP/Hunt/Hot drop and this should not be a problem.

BUT: I agree that it's bit to much DPS coming out of these. They should make it so that only ships bonuses transfer to drones when you assign them not the module bonus as well (tracking enhancer, link, damage amp, nav..)
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#133 - 2014-12-23 16:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
colera deldios wrote:

What I'm hearing is you wan't an already weak ship and a very expansive one at that. That alrady needs to be outside the POS to now be on grid do assign fighters this makes no sense someone paid some 30b for that ship I'm not saying that should buy him easy kills and god like power which it does not he can assign 10 fighters 15 at most but no sane person will risk his high slots for DCU II which don't even make sense to carry on a super carrier.

The point is it's very easy to outrun Fighters regardles of it's bonuses and it's even easier to shoot them off the field.

One of the easiest things to do si have people starburst and whoever has fighters on them just warp off fighters will follow him he can warp back to the field which will bug the fighters and player will have to recall them.

If you are smart this should never happen to you twice and if it does than it's your own fault for being stupid. Because first time it happens you get the name you get the pos and next time you warp a machariel on top of it and light a cyno for your friends.

And regardless if you are 0.0/WH/LS entity it will be pretty damn easy to kill it Lazerhawks, Shadow Cartel, BL, PL, NC even HK i think killed a Nyx.. all have demonstrated that it's pretty easy to kill suppers doing this I my self assigned fighters few times and stopped aftter I alsmost died dropping same people twice in ~3 weeks span.
Also it's pretty easy to defang 10 supers let alone 1. Go learn to PVP/Hunt/Hot drop and this should not be a problem.

BUT: I agree that it's bit to much DPS coming out of these. They should make it so that only ships bonuses transfer to drones when you assign them not the module bonus as well (tracking enhancer, link, damage amp, nav..)


No offence but you might want to stop posting :insert tongue in cheek smiley: - you reference at least a dozen outdated mechanics there i.e. cyno on POS just as one example and with the way they are using the carriers lately even if you could cyno on the POS you have to be beyond lucky to have someone land in a position to bump that super out as the FF came up. They don't generally tend to do it from the same POS or even the same system that often (partly due to having to reset the FF) and partly to avoid being caught.

(As a side note we've killed a nyx before - wasn't there myself sadly - infact if I do say so one of the better super kills IMO as it was a good fight from both sides and not a gank on a defenceless super - well until BL turned up to dunk it that is).


EDIT: PS I've a couple of gal carrier V, fighters V, DCU V, etc. chars myself and have done this before (albeit not sitting beside a control tower waiting to online the FF if I came under threat) and would do it again probably but that doesn't change that its lame especially when done in such a way your almost if not immune to harm coming to your capital.
colera deldios
#134 - 2014-12-23 17:10:28 UTC
Rroff wrote:


No offence but you might want to stop posting :insert tongue in cheek smiley: - you reference at least a dozen outdated mechanics there i.e. cyno on POS just as one example and with the way they are using the carriers lately even if you could cyno on the POS you have to be beyond lucky to have someone land in a position to bump that super out as the FF came up. They don't generally tend to do it from the same POS or even the same system that often (partly due to having to reset the FF) and partly to avoid being caught.

(As a side note we've killed a nyx before - wasn't there myself sadly - infact if I do say so one of the better super kills IMO as it was a good fight from both sides and not a gank on a defenceless super - well until BL turned up to dunk it that is).


EDIT: PS I've a couple of gal carrier V, fighters V, DCU V, etc. chars myself and have done this before (albeit not sitting beside a control tower waiting to online the FF if I came under threat) and would do it again probably but that doesn't change that its lame especially when done in such a way your almost if not immune to harm coming to your capital.


Where did I even mention POS. I'm sure that I'm familiar with capitals & using assisted fighters much more than you are. Because so far only thing you have proved is that you are incompetent and judging by your KB I can see why.

The fact that you think that you need to cyno something on top of the super to bump it off the pos means you know jack ****. No wonder you are not competent enough to create a bookmark on top of a super on the edge of the pos with a cloacky and warp a machariel down to it.

In anycase it does not matter because looking at your KB it seems only PVP you enjoy is the one pre-calculated.. So ganks, you can't PVP or plan a hot drop so you are asking CCP to help you out. Checks out perfectly.

Like the people crying to CCP to nerf cloacky camping & local.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#135 - 2014-12-23 17:18:38 UTC
colera deldios wrote:


Where did I even mention POS. I'm sure that I'm familiar with capitals & using assisted fighters much more than you are. Because so far only thing you have proved is that you are incompetent and judging by your KB I can see why.

The fact that you think that you need to cyno something on top of the super to bump it off the pos means you know jack ****. No wonder you are not competent enough to create a bookmark on top of a super on the edge of the pos with a cloacky and warp a machariel down to it.

In anycase it does not matter because looking at your KB it seems only PVP you enjoy is the one pre-calculated.. So ganks, you can't PVP or plan a hot drop so you are asking CCP to help you out. Checks out perfectly.

Like the people crying to CCP to nerf cloacky camping & local.


Apparently not - a common practise at the moment is to sit by a control tower with the FF down and fighters assigned so that they can hit enter on the FF password dialog and be safe at the slightest sign of trouble which mean you need to get a ship in a position to bump them out (which potentially is considered an exploit at the moment anyhow).
Idriane
Yalaan-Timirgor Conglomerate
#136 - 2014-12-23 17:22:36 UTC
Maby im just in a bad location but when i use my carrier to assist fighters my cap is anything but safe... 3 or 4 groups with i range of me could kill me easy if i mess up st all.....
colera deldios
#137 - 2014-12-23 17:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: colera deldios
Rroff wrote:
colera deldios wrote:


Where did I even mention POS. I'm sure that I'm familiar with capitals & using assisted fighters much more than you are. Because so far only thing you have proved is that you are incompetent and judging by your KB I can see why.

The fact that you think that you need to cyno something on top of the super to bump it off the pos means you know jack ****. No wonder you are not competent enough to create a bookmark on top of a super on the edge of the pos with a cloacky and warp a machariel down to it.

In anycase it does not matter because looking at your KB it seems only PVP you enjoy is the one pre-calculated.. So ganks, you can't PVP or plan a hot drop so you are asking CCP to help you out. Checks out perfectly.

Like the people crying to CCP to nerf cloacky camping & local.


Apparently not - a common practise at the moment is to sit by a control tower with the FF down and fighters assigned so that they can hit enter on the FF password dialog and be safe at the slightest sign of trouble which mean you need to get a ship in a position to bump them out (which potentially is considered an exploit at the moment anyhow).


Where is that a common practice you mean because you saw brawe/test do it when they have 500 people around ? Because noone else is that stupid. Think you need to learn how to bowl using a cloacky ship and a 100Nomen or Mach or Orthus. Doing that is a death drap and no super alone or lone carrier will do that. Not even as par of a small group.

I have seen some pretty stupid people around EVE but I doub't anyone is that stupid.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2014-12-23 18:30:00 UTC
colera deldios wrote:

BUT: I agree that it's bit to much DPS coming out of these. They should make it so that only ships bonuses transfer to drones when you assign them not the module bonus as well (tracking enhancer, link, damage amp, nav..)


Leaving out anything to do with pos's, the fact you even say that suggests its op as hell (potentially broke) and should be toned down.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2014-12-23 19:01:58 UTC
The DPS would be A-OK if these things were at risk at a level suitable for the reward being reaped.

The fundamental argument about it being "balanced" is a) their cost and b) relying on massive pilot stupidity to even stand a chance to lose it. Those two are usually the last straws grasped at by employers of hideously overpowered junk.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#140 - 2014-12-23 19:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
colera deldios wrote:


Where is that a common practice you mean because you saw brawe/test do it when they have 500 people around ? Because noone else is that stupid. Think you need to learn how to bowl using a cloacky ship and a 100Nomen or Mach or Orthus. Doing that is a death drap and no super alone or lone carrier will do that. Not even as par of a small group.

I have seen some pretty stupid people around EVE but I doub't anyone is that stupid.



Bring cloaky in = they go on higher alert.

Bring machariel or something in and it gets tackled on gate by ceptor, rapier/huginn, etc. with assigned fighters.

Not saying there aren't ways around it potentially - especially if you live in an area or are there regularly and know someone doing it regularly but for the most part unless they get sloppy they are pretty much as safe as if they were docked in a station (not quite but close).

It seems to me like your ~2 months behind the curve as some things have changed in recent patches and/or the way people have been doing things has changed since those patches but most of your posts appear (atleast how I'm reading them) to be based around how things were before those patches.