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Dev blog: Industry & Teams - The Removal of Teams

First post
Author
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-12-17 15:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Title is king; Teams are not providing what was wanted from them. In a very rare course of action they are being removed for the health of Industry.

Head on over here to read Team Game of Drones' dev blog about it.

Give us your feedback and tell us what you think.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#2 - 2014-12-17 15:11:40 UTC
Well, I never used them. For much of my industry, they would not have helped, so there was no reason to. For the rest, it seemed to be a high complexity task for a chance at a small gain, and not worth the effort. I could get more gain by spending that time mining another load of ore.

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Frozen fanfiction

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-12-17 15:13:48 UTC
Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-12-17 15:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Something that was discussed in the original thread regarding the removal that hasn't been addressed to my knowledge- Teams were being used to balance certain recent changes in Manufacturing and Invention:


  • Teams are one of the only ways to get an ME reduction during a manufacturing build process
  • The increased success change from the use of of Meta items used in the Invention process being removed was balanced against Teams providing additional success chance. This is on top of the original Invention changes having more complexity via different outcomes based on the success percentages, which was not implemented.


If Teams are being removed, will you be making any adjustment to the base stats in these kind of use cases?
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#5 - 2014-12-17 15:22:23 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Why another feedback thread? The other thread had a great deal of replies already.


Mostly because a forum thread does not receive the same traffic that a blog post does, so we want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to see this.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter

iwannadig
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-12-17 15:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: iwannadig
I could refer to my old post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4645030
This system is too complex now and gives too little bonus to team bidder.
When I want to produce something I gather resources by myself and I can predict when I gather all I need and start job immediately.
But teams is non-controllable resource mainly because of bidding system which does not allow to control when the team will be available. To get rid of this ballast players simply don't use them as they break (slow down) production chain.
Also, as a manufacturer, I will never move my production location to the place where needed team is spawn, because it is not worth it.
Arkarn
DeathByDestruction
#7 - 2014-12-17 15:27:45 UTC
I used teams as much as I possibly could. The minor increase in batch costs was nothing compared to the hundreds of millions saved with 2.5% ME on materials that can cost tens of billions.

The only thing that stopped me from using them as much as possible was the awful bidding system. Most of the teams were either ending in the wrong timezone or would get sniped at the very last second. If those two issues were sorted I bet you'd see a much larger uptake with teams.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2014-12-17 15:28:32 UTC
Since mostly large scale supercapital/capital builders are concerned I would like to thank CCP for making my bros and me supers supercheap for a few months and harder for upcoming superpilots. #OldGuardeSupremacy

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#9 - 2014-12-17 15:32:52 UTC
-- begin irony
Excellent move!

Did you know that me (and probably others as well) turned their back on manufacturing and co. due to the excellent ideas of teams?

And now you remove them again.

Well, done!
-- end irony

Another nail in the coffin
iwannadig
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-12-17 15:33:27 UTC
Arkarn wrote:
I used teams as much as I possibly could. The minor increase in batch costs was nothing compared to the hundreds of millions saved with 2.5% ME on materials that can cost tens of billions.

The only thing that stopped me from using them as much as possible was the awful bidding system. Most of the teams were either ending in the wrong timezone or would get sniped at the very last second. If those two issues were sorted I bet you'd see a much larger uptake with teams.

Right. Large scale industry jobs can benefit from team bonuses, but small can not.
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
#11 - 2014-12-17 15:37:45 UTC
While you are at it, please go back to the more useful industrial interface. To be sure, the new interface is "cute", but not concise.
Cloon McCloon
Space Fukery
#12 - 2014-12-17 15:42:54 UTC
Why remove them before you have a better option in mind? Not many people used them, so what? They aren't hurting anything, why not leave them there until a better option is in the works?

Since ME-5 is as good as it gets with invention now, that extra ME bonus from teams is the only thing that made certain manufacturing profitable, taking them away now does nothing positive for manufacturers.

I agree the bidding system sucks, but there was always the option of just moving to manufacture stuff where another team is already available, which I thought was one of the points of teams.

I just don't see the harm in just leaving them in.
drummendejef maaktnietuit
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2014-12-17 15:43:51 UTC
I do some manufacturing but never had the feeling I should use teams, they seemed expensive for what they would do, and would make EVE more "spreadsheet online" for me.

I don't think it's a bad thing that they leave.

When I heard about them I thought "teams, cool, now we can manufacture together with other players", and then we got dissapointed :(

So, idea from me: "It's an MMO, make 'Teams' something with other players, like building stuff together"
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#14 - 2014-12-17 15:44:24 UTC
Teams are missing the risk v reward. I would have much prefered teams to be lowsec/null sec and only work for pos's. This would provide another pillar for player interaction to happen.
David Beta
Fly By Night Innovations
#15 - 2014-12-17 15:51:26 UTC
I know that I for one used them extensively on large scale or large volume production projects, and found them to be quite useful.

If they're not providing benefit for certain types of jobs, or provide that benefit at a prohibitive cost, why not simply let economics sort the problem out? People will use teams on jobs and in situations that merit them, and avoid them where the benefit is not present.

If there's very low utilization, then obviously most industry is continuing in the absence of teams, so they don't represent a mandatory increase in complexity, merely one that is applicable in certain situations.

I'm really just failing to see how this is damaging to the economy as a whole. Why not just leave them in for those who use them as an extra marginal benefit to chase? For those engaged in activities that don't really benefit from teams, it's a non-issue, and those who are, it's just one more element of competition and cost-benefit to factor in.
Noriko Mai
#16 - 2014-12-17 15:55:54 UTC
Please bring back Dark Opaque Theme!

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#17 - 2014-12-17 15:56:03 UTC
Teams are a rarely used feature which was actually interesting and had positive consequences for everyone, so you decide to remove it?

This makes no sense whatsoever.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#18 - 2014-12-17 15:58:37 UTC
A good decision, in my opinion.

It's nice to see, you are not to proud or undiscerning, to question "features" you implemented in the past.

Now, please, get rid of the system cost index as well, because, with your words, "in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity" and it is "not positively impacting the overall gameplay experience in EVE."

Thanks CCP and keep it up! Big smile


Regards,

Damjan
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#19 - 2014-12-17 15:58:52 UTC
tl;dr: Teams were barely used, too complex, and it will be harder to yank and replace them farther down the road, so we're pulling the plug now.

Kudos on the frankness and boldness in admitting the idea didn't work out as planned. I don't think you've communicated very clearly why you had to pull the plug rather than leaving the feature in there though.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-12-17 15:59:56 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
If Teams are being removed, will you be making any adjustment to the base stats in these kind of use cases?
Very much this; the industry changes were balanced upon the the premise that later-to-be-implemented teams would bring them to the desired point of balance. Now that teams are being removed from the equation, a look at invention success chance would be appropriate, along with some consideration of T2 ship build costs: these saw a significant increase with Crius, with ship costs balanced around 150% of the old ME 0 build requirements and reductions applied from there, rather than the 110% available with a Process decryptor. Teams have been helpful in mitigating the price increase associated with that rebalance, and the decision to remove them should include a way to prevent unintended economic changes.
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