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Dev blog: Download on Demand client for EVE Online

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CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#141 - 2014-12-17 09:16:07 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Try it? ok. I have ADSL connection that typpically allows about 375Mb/s. I run my client on max setting at all times.


  1. Erased my current Duality install.
  2. DL installer took about 10 seconds. Smile
  3. Run installer. 89.24 MB dl. Not bad. Start up my forum post while waiting. *1
  4. Log in. PLAY button is grey. Commence 329.75MB DL *2
  5. After 5-10 minutes, PLAY goes yellow.
  6. Client is slow to start. Only a black screen for about 1-2 minutes. Then I get character select.
  7. Select chaaracter. Get another black screen for 2 minutes. Station environment loads. I'm looking at my Caracal.
  8. Undock is fine. Local stars load. Wait about 30 seconds and I get nebulas.
  9. Warp to gate. np. Jump. Warp tunnel is a no go. But jumping takes normal time. System loads just fine. Warping to a planet for the first time it took a few seconds for the planet to show. But after that it was fine. Stations scaled into view beautifully.
  10. All further jumps load fine. But I change regions just in case. No delays.
  11. Background music stuttered frequently. (Confirmed, Eve has sound.)


Test complete. Sweet Baby Jesus. This is awesome. Deploy this.

At no point was I explicitly given an option of where to install anything. However, the options exist within the launcher.

*1: While waiting for the client to dl, I would like to mention that people I have tried to get into this game, upon hearing the 7GB DL size and need to wait all night to get it, have simply said "Nope, not gonna do it. Don't want to tie up my internet all night." Conincidentally, in the time it took me to write this, dl finished.

*2: This went astonishingly fast. Clearly it didn't even need to dl the entire 375MB. However, at 329.71/329.75MB the client appears to hang. Since this is a test, I have my networking monitor open and can see that the connection is active. So maybe your DL bar is giving an inaccurate report. After a couple more minutes, it continued on its merry way.


Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad you like this. I'll investigate those black screens - that's much longer than anything we've seen in our tests.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#142 - 2014-12-17 09:16:50 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Does this means that we'll be no longer seeing "Traffic Control is currently offline and unable to process your jump request. Please try again in a moment" messages?

That is completely unrelated, sorry.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Sarmatiko
#143 - 2014-12-17 09:19:55 UTC
CCP Snorlax, by the way, do you have cleanup mechanism for deprecated resources in shared cache? Like, "oh, you have TQ installed here, Sisi there and also Eveprobe, so I must read all resfileindex contents, save listed files and burn everything else".
Could shared cache turn into one big pile of old files someday?
Sarmatiko
#144 - 2014-12-17 09:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Soldarius wrote:


  1. Client is slow to start. Only a black screen for about 1-2 minutes. Then I get character select.
  2. Select chaaracter. Get another black screen for 2 minutes. Station environment loads. I'm looking at my Caracal.
  3. Undock is fine. Local stars load. Wait about 30 seconds and I get nebulas.

I have 10 Mbit ADSL and loading times were like 10-20 seconds at max.
Planets appearing out of nothing looked strange though. Maybe there should be some kind of prioritization system for fresh clients. If you appear in station, system should start pre-loading stellar objects and gates before you hit undock button.
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#145 - 2014-12-17 09:31:20 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:

...

What about w-space? And yes, we've been reading your constant responses about how all the low-level stuff will be loaded, but if you have your settings on high, what happens then? Does it then start to download all the high stuff for that wormhole?

Yes, it will. You will still see the lower detail models until the higher detail finishes downloading.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

Also further questions here, since it doesn't seem to really be stated anywhere (yes, I actually took the time to read all 6 pages):

So the devblog (and several posts) mentioned something about "Or just let the launcher window download everything", does that mean that if you don't immediately go into the game it will start downloading everything anyways?

Yes, if you selected that option. It is up to you if you let the client purely load things on demand, or you allow the launcher to download everything.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

And another silly question, if you do immediately go into the game as soon as physically possible, will the system just continue downloading the full set of assets in the background? Or will it only download the assets your client is specifically asking for?

Again, it depends on your setting.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

If your graphics are turned to low/minimum, does the new system just never bother to fetch the higher quality assets and therefore result in a slim client?

If you opt not to download everything then yes, your client will consume a lot less disk space.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

What is the minimum client size? You say game's core will only be initially downloaded before you can play, but then you also say that within a few minutes of playing the whole gambit of low assets will be downloaded. Is that in addition to the core game data? If so how much larger does the client get with just the low assets?

It really depends on what you do in the game and what you see, but the downloaded resource cache will be on the order of 2-3GB for the average player.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

If you were to download the new launcher, log in and sit in a station, would anything further be downloaded in the background or would it stop?

The lower detail models and textures for everything in space will be downloaded at least. If you opted to download everything then everything will be downloaded.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

Does this core data include item/module/ship info/icons etc? Or will there be lag to the market as it has to download information for anything you click or scroll through.

Icons are downloaded on demand so yes, there may be a slight lag in icons showing up. The UI will be responsive, though.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

If the game is going to be downloading assets for things you come across, is there a bandwidth cap for it to use so it does not interfere with latency or create more lag while trying to do anything that may require low latency? I know for me if I am downloading a bunch of stuff while playing Eve I can definitely tell a difference and things react and respond a lot slower than if I wasn't downloading anything.

Currently there is no bandwidth cap, no - we may consider that pending results of public testing.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#146 - 2014-12-17 09:32:04 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
CCP Snorlax, by the way, do you have cleanup mechanism for deprecated resources in shared cache? Like, "oh, you have TQ installed here, Sisi there and also Eveprobe, so I must read all resfileindex contents, save listed files and burn everything else".
Could shared cache turn into one big pile of old files someday?

We will have that, yes.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2014-12-17 09:38:35 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
Soldarius wrote:


  1. Client is slow to start. Only a black screen for about 1-2 minutes. Then I get character select.
  2. Select chaaracter. Get another black screen for 2 minutes. Station environment loads. I'm looking at my Caracal.
  3. Undock is fine. Local stars load. Wait about 30 seconds and I get nebulas.

I have 10 Mbit ADSL and loading times were like 10-20 seconds at max.
Planets appearing out of nothing looked strange though. Maybe there should be some kind of prioritization system for fresh clients. If you appear in station, system should start pre-loading stellar objects and gates before you hit undock button.

We do this already, actually. What's missing is to grey out the undock button until those resources have been prefetched.

This is somewhat of an edge case, though. When we release this to TQ we will offer a way to unpack the stuff files into the cache so you would have those planet textures already. A new player just starting the game would not be likely to undock from station fast enough.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Hebus Zanheros
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-12-17 09:39:18 UTC
Why dont you try using Tor, It work great for linux distrib You should try it.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#149 - 2014-12-17 09:40:39 UTC
+1 for the change

This has long been needed for EVE, as it gets progressively larger is storage, the time needed to get in game is longer...this is exponentially more true for those on a slower connection. Being able to play as you download should solve the problem with getting in Teamspeak because you found out a POS is under attack only to tell your ceo...sorry guys would love to help but I forgot to set my computer to auto start the client to download after the patch while I was at work...soo I will be downloading this while you guys have fun.

I am glad you will be properly testing it though to ensure that you are still shipping EVE in a way that doesn't completely interfere with us playing. Good luck and look forward to seeing the new delivery method in the future! Big smile
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#150 - 2014-12-17 09:44:15 UTC
Will this affect people who have small bandwidth Internet connections ?

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2014-12-17 09:53:26 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Will this affect people who have small bandwidth Internet connections ?

Well, you're not downloading any more than you are today. When you installed EVE you got the full set of resources - when we switch over to this you will have an option to unpack your existing stuff files to save you from downloading them again. If you choose to download all resources you are guaranteed not to have any delays due to downloads while playing the game - it effectively behaves just like it does today.

If you are setting the game up for the first time on a slower connection, you at least have the option to start playing much sooner than you would otherwise.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Sturmwolke
#152 - 2014-12-17 10:48:08 UTC
Ughh ... this is basically incremental DL while you play the game. Ok, I see the goal, but I can also see that CCP is increasing deployment complexity to achieve it.
Basic immutable principle : The more complex things are, the harder they are to maintain and the easier it is to break them.

I would actually seriously question the management decision behind this effort from a holistic perspective, when you examine it for what benefits it brings and the total ownership cost for this project.
Historically, from casual observations it takes typically 2-3 years for CCP to correct/iron out teething issues and this new initiative is no different. Remember the wonderful EVE Launcher™ *heavy sarcasm*?

Do not implement technologies purely for the sake of blings and to satisfy the technology junkies in the company, while losing sight of the ground you're standing on.
Do implement technologies when it is needed/necessary and with proper due process for ROI and ownership costs.
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#153 - 2014-12-17 10:58:32 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Ughh ... this is basically incremental DL while you play the game. Ok, I see the goal, but I can also see that CCP is increasing deployment complexity to achieve it.
Basic immutable principle : The more complex things are, the harder they are to maintain and the easier it is to break them.

I would actually seriously question the management decision behind this effort from a holistic perspective, when you examine it for what benefits it brings and the total ownership cost for this project.
Historically, from casual observations it takes typically 2-3 years for CCP to correct/iron out teething issues and this new initiative is no different. Remember the wonderful EVE Launcher™ *heavy sarcasm*?

Do not implement technologies purely for the sake of blings and to satisfy the technology junkies in the company, while losing sight of the ground you're standing on.
Do implement technologies when it is needed/necessary and with proper due process for ROI and ownership costs.

This actually simplifies our deployment process, speeds up build times and improves the quality of life for developers inhouse. Oh, and there's the added benefit of getting players into the game quicker. So pardon me for being a technology junkie.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Sturmwolke
#154 - 2014-12-17 11:11:34 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
This actually simplifies our deployment process, speeds up build times and improves the quality of life for developers inhouse. Oh, and there's the added benefit of getting players into the game quicker. So pardon me for being a technology junkie.

Excellent to hear, but I'll take that with a grain salt if you don't mind. Smile
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#155 - 2014-12-17 11:23:12 UTC
Jennifer Spearshield wrote:
I also doubt that downloading 7GB worth of content ahead of actual game-time, which assures me 0 delay later on when loading assets or anything else in EVE's universe is really a big issue for most people these days.

Isn't that project kind of a waste of precious human resources?


A surprising number of potential new players sign up for a trial and start the download but don't complete it. This feature gives those people an opportunity to try the game more easily.

We throw around the term "New Player Experience" a lot around here, but this feature allows EVE to make a much better impression before people even get as far as making their first character.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2014-12-17 11:31:38 UTC
My production setup : multiple copies of launcher so that I can have default account names for different sessions, and don't need to re-enter username/password while swapping between PI alts.

Everything on D drive due to limited SSD

So initial install duality to d:\program files (x86)\ccp\duality
copy folder to duality2

launch both : works OK. realize it is installing to C:\ProgramData\CCP\EVE and change config on one launcher to d:\...
This is automagically copied to second eve install (nice)

restart both launchers and start downlaoding shared data to d:\ProgramData\... .This seems to work OK.

Minor problem : rework production eve desktop icon (all good : recopied new link to desktop)

Base install completes on both windows (with some stutters but seems to work OK)

Major problem : Hit Play on both windows. Neither duality session works. Locked up and wont restart
Try again with just a single duality session. Still locked up.


Some potentially useful logs out the primary duality install are at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h4q2dwhsdn2q2mk/AADkHbpsE3ZaNrapfDOfBK4za?dl=0 (a copy of the files in D:\Program Files (x86)\CCP\EVE-duality\launcher\cache -- excluding browswercache folder)

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2014-12-17 11:35:07 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am an old ugly dude who thinks computers work by white magic.

Am I correct in assuming that I can just down load patches as I do now and log in to play as I do now?

I am sure the answer is, 'yes' but I would like to have it stated clearly.

Thank you.

Yes.

Forgot to mention that computers generally work by black magic...

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/
Catherda
James Meeks Corporation LLC
#158 - 2014-12-17 11:38:49 UTC
I currently play EVE using a 3G mobile internet connection, which works fine because of the small amount of data that is downloaded while playing (I patch my client through my home broadband connection).

Although I know the option to download the full patch files will remain, I'm curious to know how downloading on demand would work when playing on 3G. I get the feeling that it's going to eat away at my monthly download limit and make it a feature that couldn't be used for mobile internet players.

If it's the case that it would eat away at it then it would be essential to leave the option to download the full patch files before entering the game.

Another question I have is if there are other people using the internet, are they going to find they get big latency spikes as the client downloads on demand data from EVE?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#159 - 2014-12-17 12:37:23 UTC
I give 100 +1's.
I have the worst internet connection, 6Mb which actually runs at around 3.5Mb.

Initial login was sluggish (the longest part of the whole process) but once past that, things just worked.
Even with my crappy internet it took less than 20 mins from downloading installer to login and undocking.

Once this goes live will I need multiple installs for multiple clients or will I still be able run my 9 clients as I do now from one install?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Memphis Baas
#160 - 2014-12-17 13:05:49 UTC
This seems like a good idea, win-win for devs and players alike. However, please please do extra QA / bug-testing on this, because any problems will obviously prevent existing players from logging in or playing their PVP properly after patch. You guys don't reimburse ships lost to lag or latency, and this has the potential to make it a big issue.

As a suggestion, please add options to the Repair feature to "download the rest of the assets" if we feel like turning the computer on at night when the internets are faster. It would be nice to not have to autopilot across the starmap in order to try to grab all the assets.