Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Cloak mechanic?

Seriously tho, that super costs well over 20 bill after is all said and done. What did that fleet cost you? You are invading their system, they were prepared and brought their assets to bare against you. Or did you expect your couple hundred mill (IF THAT) in ships to be able to roll through their space unhindered? While the risk is low, it is hardly perfectly safe if the invading fleet is prepared, and the cost to them for being careless is far greater than you welping that fleet every day for the better half of a year.

Do not talk about something being too safe/OP/broken without first taking into account what it took (time/money/skills/effort) to achieve such power.

Removing all that from the equation would make pipe bombs appear to be OP vs all non BS fleets. Yet to effectively pull one off the people involved must coordinate their actions and be prepared ahead of time with all assets in position. Does it appear overpowered? Yes. Is it? No, just amazing preparation and execution of an effective tactic. Which is exactly what you are complaining about here.



TLDR - This is eve where information and preparation is everything. Do not expect everything to go your way on a random roam through null for "free" kills against pilots with a lot more SP and assets than you.

You are comparing this to pipebombing? Really?
Pipebombing ships are VULNERABLE for crying out loud.
A carrier/super inches away from a pos shield are really really safe, more so in a phoebe eve.
You say one has to take into account time, money, skills blablabla?
3 Minutes of slowboating towards the edge of the pos shield + log on time? wooooo, tiiiime.
Skill? Push control+c keys before you are too far from the edge in a 90m/s ship? Impressive
Money? Fighters cost 20 mil a piece, five of them cost less than an average roaming ship, for much better performance. Only thing to factor imo since the assigning ship is not an asset you are putting on the line.
Effort? I don't even know what to say.

Remote dps is just something stupid, period.
It being so safe, it is even more stupid.
I'd just like to know what ccp guys think about this.

See every afk cloaking thread ever for retort.





Couple hundred mill each - our fleets generally cost between 1 and 5 bil total. ISK is not a balancing factor though, so this argument is irrelevant.



Again, this is not a balancing factor. The fact that the ship costs a lot is irrelevant, and isn't an argument against the mechanic of risk free DPS being unbalanced.



These are completely different scenarios - a pipebombing ship is absolutely at risk, the carriers and supers we're talking about here are not.

Explain to me why it shouldn't please? Why should 5 bill even in ships be able to easily take out my 20+ bill super and few support ships when I am prepared for you coming into my system and you were not ready to face me? Had you came in and camped/scouted my system ahead of time you could have located which moon(s) I go between. If you found that you did not have the man power or assets to take me on you could have taken a different route and avoided the fight altogether.

Again, you were in our sov. I have the homefield advantage. You want to meet me on my turf, come prepared and don't think your little roams will ever stand a chance so ill prepared.




To which again I say why not? A lesser skilled player should be able to take on a much higher skilled player if their actions are properly planned and executed. My assets are worth more, I put far more time into obtaining my ships and skills than them. My well established intel network allowed me to predict their movements and prepare my attack.

So I ask AGAIN why should we be on equal footing when he stumbled into my domain? You speak like a child who thinks he can take on his elders who have far more experience.




These are not absolutely different. You complain about the super being safe, yet what about the titan that bridged in that pipebomb fleet? He is in a completely other system well within his POS shield. The fleet is at risk, yet so is the ship commanding the fighters. The difference is the super is actually in system, and outside of the POS. That pipebomb is far more devastating than a few fighters even from a Nyx. You fail to see outside of your own box to the larger picture.
Nobody complains about pipe bombs because it is typically only null fleets that are hit by them and we take them in stride. Null players have learned to laugh at their helplessness and congratulate their killers for a well executed play. We do not curse them as you people here are doing about a player assigning fighters to his friends to take our your roam. Come prepared, paint and kill the fighters, or bring a fast ship to tackle commanding ship and kill him.

The day CCP takes the advantage out of the hands of the sov holder or defender is the day this game dies. There will be no advantage to sov or owning space at all when the attacker holds no longer requires intel or effort to launch their attack.

The changes you all suggest have far further consequences than simply allowing your puny roams to go about picking off free kills unhindered in other player's space. Until you understand this I suggest you put more time within null space and sov warfare under your belt before you bring up your humorous grievances.


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I will yield one point to you all. It makes sense for the player being assigned the fighters to at least have 1 level of fighters to accept them. I will stretch that to all forms of drone assist/assign. The pilot receiving control should have the skills to use them himself.

One of the points is exactly that no one can possibly kill you much loved Nyx
If it was where it can be harmed, it would still take many batphones and you to be reckless and/or without help



You already have many many advantages: your intel network, jumpbridges, a lot of ppl living a couple jumps away, your poses and stations with their supplies of ships and mods to best counter whatever comes looking for a fight, or straight up hiding.
YOUR SUPERCAPITALS which as it stands you dont even need to put in harms way.
That's quite a few homeground advantages i think.




Titans don't project their dps through cyno portals.
Has their fleet teleport ability generated a tactic which was unforeseen by ccp and therefore not balanced? Maybe.

Please not compare a tactic that actually takes skill to pull off with your monkey proof assign fighters though.
They are not on the same level really.

Also, how many times one have to answer to the "do x,y,z to counter this tactic" argument?
Just admit you don't know what people mean for "balance issue" mkay? =)

Figured I'd summarize it for those just catching up.

5B of ships shouldn't be able to kill a 20B ship? You'd get along great with the captain of the Bismarck.

Remember my comment about a child talking to his elders? I never said they shouldn't at all. I said they should prepare for what they are to face. I am under, and never should be, any requirement to face you head to head in battle when my ship by design is meant to project it's power within a system. You want your 5 billion to take out my 20+? Work for it.

You have little to no actual null experience. You have not put in the time and effort of the group of players who inhabit this space. It appears over powered because you do not understand it. A Nyx who is fit for taking out your fleet will tank exactly zero DDs before he pops as he is full gank, possibly a second if he made use of a DC.

You are missing my point, it's the same argument used in favor of cloaky camping. USE ANOTHER SYSTEM! TAKE A DIFFERENT ROUTE! Use a scout and gather intel, if you go in and see a super on scan assume he's going to use it against you and make a decision. Face him head on, or go around and avoid the fight.

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Rather than ranting further I'll just enlighten you on the nature of capital and super capital warfare.
Many things appear imbalanced because there is no proper way to balance them without hurting another aspect of their gameplay. I'll start with the lower tier of capitals.
Carriers are drone fighting platforms and fill the role of fleet assistance. This includes offensive assistance not just defensive.
Dreads are mobile dps platforms, their job is to knock out other capitals and structures quickly.
Supers are an upgraded version of their lower tier brethren and give up their ability to enter triage in exchange for more health and greater firepower. While still maintaining the role of fleet assistance.
Titans are the behemoths of firepower. They bring more dps than a dread without the need to siege, and a shiny button that makes other caps disappear off field. In other words think of them like the next tier of dreads similar to supers are to carriers.


So just looking at the carrier and super carrier tiers you can see they are fleet assistance capitals. They are meant to assist their fleet on and off field by making a decision of projecting their firepower or entering triage. They have to make a choice at this tier of capital, they cannot do both.

If you look at each step up in ships, each is an improvement upon it's predecessor. A titan doesn't have to enter siege to have greater firepower than a dread, but at the same time it lacks the self rep abilities and must rely on a fleet to do that for him. The super is no different. It has greater firepower, but has lost it's ability to triage and fill the same role as it's carrier counterpart. It has instead become a mobile dps platform but without the ability to knock out other caps instantly like a titan.


Players must be rewarded for their time invested in training their characters, as well as isk invested in their assets. If a super must now be on field to assign fighters why not just use 4 carriers worth of fighters instead? You'll find it costs less than half as much to accomplish this and less training as well. Add to this the ability to use sub-fighter level of drones to more easily handle sub-capitals without having to sacrifice your tank to do so. See SlowCat fleets.

Trade offs must be made at every level of play. A battlecruiser is superior to a cruiser yet is slower and has a larger sig. A single cruiser can, tho not easily, take out a battlecruiser if prepared for the fight. A battleship will volley the cruiser if prepared, but will lose to the battlecruiser if too much tank was sacrificed to accomplish this. A capital set up to kill subcapitals will die very quickly to other capitals for the exact same reasons.


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A lot of you in this thread have locked your sights on the super as the source of the imbalance due to fighter assign. Rather than accepting that what you have done is stumbled into a situation you were ill prepared for. It's like a child throwing a tantrum because of things not going their way because of mechanics they barely grasp.

If you want to put blame on any form of imbalance may I suggest you all turn your attention to the POS shield mechanics which are what allow this "perfect safety" you all seem to believe exists within this game. I give you this suggestion:
*** Ships which are locked going into a POS shield do not receive the damage/lock immunity similar to not being able to cloak while targeted.***
This removes POS shield games and can somehow be extended to station undock/dock mechanics. This is the true imbalance, so please. If you're going to focus your anger, please put it in the right place.

Could have saved us the 10 pages of utterly-condescending narrative.

Go ahead and find a quote of me saying I want to easily take out your super. You won't, because I've never said that. All I want is for your Super to be at least at risk of attack when I'm fighting it, which currently it is not.

I would never, frankly, expect any of TRECI's fleets to kill a super, but it should at least be in sufficient danger that maybe we have time to tackle it and batphone someone bigger.




I don't think you understand what we're asking for. We're not asking to be on equal footing - at the end of the day you're in a super, and I (and to my knowledge, everyone who agrees that this is a problem) have no expectation that our <10 man HAC roams will ever be able to actually kill your ship. The point is that we're no threat to it at all. Of course we can't kill it, but if it's fighting us then we ought to be able to at least tackle it and hopefully be able to batphone for help.

So; we're not asking for a few HACs to be able to kill supers. Please get that through your skull.




This is literally the whole problem. Right now, that commanding ship is safe at his POS, and we CAN'T tackle him.



The advantage has nothing to do with sov. You could easily use the same tactic in NPC nullsec, or in lowsec,or in wormholes. There is basically no mechanical relation to sovereignty and the use of supers like this.


Your second post was more or less condescending nonesense so the only bit I'll respond to is this:



It's like you're not even freaking reading! Let me lay this out for you clear as day.

A Super that's on grid with a gate and ownzones my fleet when we jump in to it is 100% balanced, and neither I nor anybody I know has any problem with that whatsoever.

That exact same super that's sat next to a POS with the force field 1 click away from activation (and thus basically totally safe), but has assigned his fighters to some dual 1600mm plated Mallers who are sat on the gate, and whom then ownzown my fleet is absolutely NOT balanced, and needs fixing, somehow.

So do you pos hugging super pilots have some sort of elite private chat channel where you all pat each other on the back for your pvp exploits?? What's the chatter in there like?

"Dude, it was awesome.... I just alpha'd some ships on some gate in some bubbles.... once the kb loads I'll let you know what I got"

"Bro! I just killed my 200th enyo on the L-AME gate! Another .006 points to my kb efficiency"



All the mechanics opinions asside.... How can you guys do that for more than like 5 minutes w/out getting bored. Did you really put in all the time, effort and isk of getting into a super just to hug a tower/pos shield and assign some fighters? It's more than the mechanics I don't get.