These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Download on Demand client for EVE Online

First post First post
Author
Noriko Mai
#41 - 2014-12-16 16:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
[..]How will my session changes work under such load? Will I black screen until all assets are fetched from CCP's CDN? What happens when a ship warps on grid and I don't have the asset for that ship already fetched? Will my client freeze until it is loaded?[..]

At the moment everything just black screens if it isn't downloaded already. Really confusing.

Please at least add a loading wheel or something.

Where are you getting a black screen? That should not happen, and is not what we've seen in our testing.

Docking to a station (for the first time) gives me a unusual long black screen. Loading Preview mode give a black Preview window for ~2 seconds.

Starting the game for the first time:
- Hit PLAY in the Launcher, nothing happens. After ~5 seconds EVE appears in the taskbar with "no response" (I don't know what the englisch message is)
- After ~5 seconds the client launches with the "Logging In" message thing.
- Log In is complete -> Black screen for a few seconds until the background loads. The character triptichon loads very sluggish.

I was somewhere in 0.0, JEDQ-7, self destructed and woke up in a Aliastra station.
- Black screen for ~3 secons. Normal Station interior loads.
- Undock warp to a Minmatar station and dock.
- Black screen for ~3 secons. Normal Station interior loads.

Everything works as usual after it was done once.

Loading the Preview gives me the following. Then the Background appears and then the ship texture appears. Every step with delay of 1-2 seconds. I totaly understand this. Textures not downloaded, etc.

I have a fast connection so it's not really a issue for me, but for someone with a slow connection all the above will be really pain in the ass. Especially for the new players that you are aming at, because they will not understan/know the technical background and think that the game is broken. A simple loading wheel will be a huge win for everyone.

EDIT: And don't get me wrong. I really like that change and think it's a very good step forward. But the above mentioned "problems" should be solved befor release Big smile

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#42 - 2014-12-16 16:40:03 UTC
Since you are looking at downloading... an issue that people have with the launcher is that if you have a poor connection, that disconnects fairly often, every time your internet connection dies you have to restart any download. Which is really... Cry when you have a multigig release update you are downloading and your internet connection decides to die. Is there a way to fix the launcher so that when you reconnect it continues downloading or will this new system fix that?
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2014-12-16 16:41:32 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
I am an absolute idiot in this conversation as I just open my game and play it. So from what I hear:

I won't notice anything, save a bit longer load time when I click on that fancy new destroyer and zoom in on it to see it.

I have the "option" to keep things moving the "old" way, if I can figure out a bit of Tech Savvy (/me looks for his tech savvy skillbook)

If I can't get my tech savviness up to the appropriate level, I'll be stuck (for good or bad) with this new system.

My question:

Is this an every-time-I-launch-the-game sort of thing? Like will i need to DL these resources over and over each play session? Each patch? Each Update?


Any resource the game downloads will be cached locally on disk, so no, it will only download it once. It only downloads it again if it changes.

The goal is that the average player, tech savvy or not, will not really notice a difference, except you were quicker into the game when setting up for the first time, or after a patch. What might have taken hours before, may now take minutes.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2014-12-16 16:44:19 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Since you are looking at downloading... an issue that people have with the launcher is that if you have a poor connection, that disconnects fairly often, every time your internet connection dies you have to restart any download. Which is really... Cry when you have a multigig release update you are downloading and your internet connection decides to die. Is there a way to fix the launcher so that when you reconnect it continues downloading or will this new system fix that?

Our hope is that this new scheme will alleviate many of those problems. We're no longer downloading huge patch files - the patches will be much smaller, increasing the success rate of downloads.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2014-12-16 16:46:17 UTC
Is this a step towards those HD textures mentioned a while back or have you stuffed that in the 'shiny but never' pile?
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#46 - 2014-12-16 16:46:40 UTC
You quite know a way to make me renew subscription.

What about people who don't want to use launcher?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-12-16 16:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Dr Cedric wrote:
I am an absolute idiot in this conversation as I just open my game and play it. So from what I hear:

I won't notice anything, save a bit longer load time when I click on that fancy new destroyer and zoom in on it to see it.

I have the "option" to keep things moving the "old" way, if I can figure out a bit of Tech Savvy (/me looks for his tech savvy skillbook)

If I can't get my tech savviness up to the appropriate level, I'll be stuck (for good or bad) with this new system.

My question:

Is this an every-time-I-launch-the-game sort of thing? Like will i need to DL these resources over and over each play session? Each patch? Each Update?


Any resource the game downloads will be cached locally on disk, so no, it will only download it once. It only downloads it again if it changes.

The goal is that the average player, tech savvy or not, will not really notice a difference, except you were quicker into the game when setting up for the first time, or after a patch. What might have taken hours before, may now take minutes.


First Dev Quote! Yay!

A follow-up question then:

If an update/patch is released, and there are things that aren't touched (like the way a can looks floating in space) then that thing hasn't changed and should need to be updated, right? Is this the way it has been in the past, only things that are new are DL'ed then installed, or is everything "copy and replaced" with the newest patch files.

Another other question:

Could this lead to on-the-fly patches? Lets say there is a problem with a ship model looking wonky. Could you (the Devs) put an updated file on the server to fix the issue, and the next time I look at the wonky ship, its magically fixed?

Another other other question:

What if there is a problem with a file, and it just so happens that a player never interacts with whatever asset that file is associated with. Wouldn't that player technically be playing with a broken client, just never looking at the broken part?

Cedric

CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2014-12-16 16:50:37 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Is this a step towards those HD textures mentioned a while back or have you stuffed that in the 'shiny but never' pile?

Let's just say that this gives us a way to implement that feature.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#49 - 2014-12-16 16:52:09 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Another other question:

Could this lead to on-the-fly patches? Lets say there is a problem with a ship model looking wonky. Could you (the Devs) put an updated file on the server to fix the issue, and the next time I look at the wonky ship, its magically fixed?

Assuming the cache is implemented properly, this kind of patching wil be likely possible.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Sarmatiko
#50 - 2014-12-16 16:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
I just don't like sixty thousand files and directories with random hash-like names in file system. What I think about could be described as "fragmentation hell".
Maybe there is a simple way to group all those in a single uncompressed file (virtual file system) like in other games with DoD like .dat in Guild Wars, for example?

Anyway DoD is a great achievement. Good work!
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2014-12-16 16:56:37 UTC
Alundil wrote:
What nefarious uses can (and will) this be put too?
Scenario:
Want to know what's in a neighboring wh system. Exit Eve client. Clear cache on scouts account. Login and load wh system. Analyze the files downloaded on demand for currently connected systems. Intel?

How will the prefetching handle bridging?
Scenario:
New player joined a "titan-owning" corp/alliance. Is told to join fleet and warp to a POS for Titan bridge. Takes titan bridge to a system he's never been to before. Will he die while resources are loading for what's in that system and surrounding systems?

These types of things, I think, could hinder adoption of this deployment methodology.

Prefetching for neighboring systems only looks at static data that the client already has. This means what stations, stargates, planets, moons, etc. are in the systems. We do not get any extra information, whatsoever, from the server to decide what do download beforehand. So sorry, no help there for your nefarious purposes.

Within a few minutes of gameplay the client will have downloaded low-detail models for everything - all ships, stations, stargates, etc. so you will never enter space and not see anything. Besides, the overview and brackets will always show up immediately.

And finally, if anyone has concerns over not seeing things right away due to downloading, have the launcher download everything before entering the game. That option will always be available.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#52 - 2014-12-16 16:59:47 UTC
Great - looking forward to it.
Now when can we get hi-res textures as a downloadable option?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#53 - 2014-12-16 17:00:01 UTC
I already can see the sh!tstorm of whine threads that will happen on GD. Like all launcher whine x 100.

But I like the change especially if that will allow to bring some other more awesome features sooner or easier or preferably both :)

Invalid signature format

CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2014-12-16 17:02:46 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
I just don't like sixty thousand files and directories with random hash-like names in file system. What I think about could be described as "fragmentation hell".
Maybe there is a simple way to group all those in a single uncompressed file (virtual file system) like in other games with DoD like .dat in Guild Wars, for example?

Anyway DoD is a great achievement. Good work!

Just think of the SharedCache folder as a virtual file system for EVE :)

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#55 - 2014-12-16 17:12:12 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
I just don't like sixty thousands files and directories with random hash-like names in file system. What I think about could be described as "fragmentation hell".
Maybe there is a simple way to group all those in a single uncompressed file (virtual file system) like in other games with DoD like .dat in Guild Wars, for example?

Anyway DoD is a great achievement. Good work!

The .stuff files are exactly that, an uncompressed "flat" archives.
This, however, has nothing to do with fragmentation, large files fragment as much as smaller. The space used (rather, space wasted) and access times for many small files versus one big linear archive, however, is a concern. Especially for a thousand of very small (under 4k) files. MFT$ could grow enormously and will be more prone to loss of data on system crashes, as small files are stored directly in MFT.

How I see this, it can be implemented in two ways. A large .stuff file and unpacked amendments for chnaged stuff. At some regular intervals, the amendments are incorporated into archive for easier access.
This will let you have an "archived" retail client and a bunch of amendments for test server client, which will be incorporated into archives at release date (for example).

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#56 - 2014-12-16 17:13:23 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
I just don't like sixty thousand files and directories with random hash-like names in file system. What I think about could be described as "fragmentation hell".
Maybe there is a simple way to group all those in a single uncompressed file (virtual file system) like in other games with DoD like .dat in Guild Wars, for example?

Anyway DoD is a great achievement. Good work!

Just think of the SharedCache folder as a virtual file system for EVE :)

I don't need to think about it. I know how it works on a filesystem level.
And did you ignored my question about laucher, or don't know the answer?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#57 - 2014-12-16 17:17:03 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
You quite know a way to make me renew subscription.

What about people who don't want to use launcher?

Nothing changes, really. The launcher still does the patching of the binaries so you will still need it for that.

The launcher does prefetch some files to improve the startup time of the client, like shaders and basic UI resources but the client will always go and fetch any file it needs if hasn't been cached already.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#58 - 2014-12-16 17:24:29 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
You quite know a way to make me renew subscription.

What about people who don't want to use launcher?

Nothing changes, really. The launcher still does the patching of the binaries so you will still need it for that.

The launcher does prefetch some files to improve the startup time of the client, like shaders and basic UI resources but the client will always go and fetch any file it needs if hasn't been cached already.

Thank you for clarification. The launcher is just an unbearable burden, basically doubling the startup time, if not more. I don't want to have any sex with it any more than absolutely necessary.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#59 - 2014-12-16 17:31:34 UTC
Please for all that is holy, tell us that you've switched to a proper CDN, that doesn't eat **** and die everytime we try and download anything from it.

Please?! Shocked
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#60 - 2014-12-16 17:41:53 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
so whats the point of this exactly? .. will it speed things up or down?

The goal is that you won't notice any difference when playing the game.

The primary driver for this change is to get people into the game quicker – both new players, downloading a trial for the first time and existing players patching after major updates.

There is less to download before you can enter the game, and the game itself will download the rest as it needs it.



There's going to be a marketing challenge to make sure that new players don't go WTF??????? when they start up and don't see epic graphics right off the bat. Like huge, flashing red letters or something in the download ui.