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Hate to Miners

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#121 - 2014-12-15 15:57:36 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#122 - 2014-12-15 16:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Because retriever, covetor, mackinaw and hulk can tank 1 extra destroyer at best (unless you bling-tank and ask for it), while Procurer and Skiff are more tanky than former without any yield sacrifice.


Well, that sounds unbalanced. Looks like we need to nerf the Proc and Skiff.


After we nerf grief decs. They are also severely unbalanced in favor of the grief deccer.

btw even if those nerfs happen they won't mean a **** - mining for profit is currently dead anyway, and mining for what you need is going to continue anyway, it's gonna be done in a max yield non-bling fit on the highest possible yield barge which isn't bling, because otherwise you'll be looking like one of those sad tossers ratting in pvp fit thinking it'll do something for them in case 12 gankbears drop on them.
Uhh.
What?
How are they severely unbalanced?
You can spend a couple of weeks training your corp into Kitsunes and Hyenas. Web and ECM from 20k away all war targets. They need to bring more forces. A single Kitsune can keep any cruiser jammed with 80%+ chance, unless it has ECCM or is a T3 with the sensor strength subsytem, it just needs to fit for racial ECM and no tank. 4 jammers, 1 mwd, signal distortion amplifiers. Hyena is 3 t2 or m4 webs, 1 mwd.
Kitsune with Signal Dispersion IV, 4*Hypnos Ion Field ECM I and 2* Signal Distortion amplifier has a 96.7% jam chance against a 1bn isk proteus (18 sensor strength). Oh sure, they might just fit ECCM, but it's still a blaster boat. 3 webs from a Hyena with Electronic Attack Ships IV can make a ship move at 6.4% of its original speed from 26k away.
If the jam succeeds, you can just warp off.
If it doesn't, hope you won't die in the next 60s or take the 25m loss.

Their only counter is to bring more numbers or change their fits. The first is annoying, because they probably have multiple wardecs and don't want to dedicate so many resources to a single group, the 2nd can be annoying, because they need to gimp their fit in some way. Such as my proteus fit. To fit an ECCM mod, you either drop your mwd, scram or web, or you lose 137 dps or some tank and become unable to permarun the MWD (not that you should be doing so, but just in case).

*Snip* Please refrain from using my name to prove a point. ISD Ezwal.

From my understanding, people don't really hate miners. They're just easy targets, so why not kill them?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#123 - 2014-12-15 16:13:12 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Sol Project wrote:
Because EVE is the sandbox game that every game wants to be,
where people get to make their own stories.

Besides it being "whole PvP" and you not understanding what PvP means,
the hate on miners simply is a part of the sandbox.


that doesn't explain why though?


Cause they can.

That is enough reason in a sandbox where you can do what you want.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#124 - 2014-12-15 16:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Basil Pupkin wrote:
.) The mineral prices point didn't fit in previous post, so I put it here.

The point of ISK profit in mining is that when mineral prices are low, you get less money than professions that do not include minerals!

That means:
You get less than ratters. Currently they make at least 1mil/minute, top miner on top roid makes 500k/minute, minus logistics, compression pos, and hauling.
You get less than mission runners. Those are about 900k/minute in my estimate, and have a bit of downtime flying to mission spots.
You get less than incursion runners. No comments.
You get less than PI runners.
You get less than wh people, who sell blue loot to NPC.
You get less than FW people.
You get less than industrials.
You get less than traders.
You get less than red frog.
etc...

The real currency here are miner-hours. You produce them, you exchange them for isk. All the above people are not tied to them in any way, so when ISK mineral prices drop, miner-hour value drops, and you start getting less than all those people.

I dare to call anyone who does not understand that clueless.
I doubt ratters are getting 20m ticks without shiny BS (e.g. pirate/marauder) or carriers.
Not sure about mission runners.
Incursions are 90-200m/hour, so it depends. 90 is for the noob groups, 200 for high class blitzing groups that get lucky. 120 is pretty standard.
It's worse than PI, but PI is a passive income
20 minutes of PI per day (not including setup times) average (updating the extractors, hauling). 600m/month. That's 600m for 600 minutes of work. so 1m/minute.
Yeah, wormholers are just rich. They do some of the hardest PvE and have to deal with logistics, which is a pain (unless they day trip, but that's not as good). It's also annoying to find a good place to set up, and you'll probably require a corp for extended stays. The risk is also pretty high and you need to probe a lot.
FW is largely variable isk. 60-90m/hour, if you manage to farm uninterrupted, but that's hard to do, because people are always hunting.
Industrials as in people that invent/research/manufacture? Well, that depends on who you're comparing it to, but probably in man hours, less isk/hour, yeah.
Traders have no steady ISK/hour. But the high end traders are able to make more than most other activities in the game.
Not really, the profit would be roughly equal to hauling a freighter, but that's not steady isk like most other activities, because other people could take the contracts/high end contracts, you need to keep lots of isk in liquid for collateral, but if you could get constant contracts, and assuming it takes 4 minutes/system (to travel), you're making like 250k/minute, which is like 15m/hour. Which is about 3/4 what a linked miner can make.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-12-15 17:47:24 UTC
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
I doubt ratters are getting 20m ticks without shiny BS (e.g. pirate/marauder) or carriers.
Not sure about mission runners.
Incursions are 90-200m/hour, so it depends. 90 is for the noob groups, 200 for high class blitzing groups that get lucky. 120 is pretty standard.
It's worse than PI, but PI is a passive income
20 minutes of PI per day (not including setup times) average (updating the extractors, hauling). 600m/month. That's 600m for 600 minutes of work. so 1m/minute.
Yeah, wormholers are just rich. They do some of the hardest PvE and have to deal with logistics, which is a pain (unless they day trip, but that's not as good). It's also annoying to find a good place to set up, and you'll probably require a corp for extended stays. The risk is also pretty high and you need to probe a lot.
FW is largely variable isk. 60-90m/hour, if you manage to farm uninterrupted, but that's hard to do, because people are always hunting.
Industrials as in people that invent/research/manufacture? Well, that depends on who you're comparing it to, but probably in man hours, less isk/hour, yeah.
Traders have no steady ISK/hour. But the high end traders are able to make more than most other activities in the game.
Not really, the profit would be roughly equal to hauling a freighter, but that's not steady isk like most other activities, because other people could take the contracts/high end contracts, you need to keep lots of isk in liquid for collateral, but if you could get constant contracts, and assuming it takes 4 minutes/system (to travel), you're making like 250k/minute, which is like 15m/hour. Which is about 3/4 what a linked miner can make.


20m ticks are fairly easy to come by in a reasonably fit Ishtar (less than 300m buying from Jita for the whole unit).
Look up the guide to blitzing L3 missions with a Mach, and you'll see that mission running can make significantly more.
The rest, I don't have enough personal experience with that I feel able to comment.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#126 - 2014-12-15 17:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Decaneos wrote:
There are people that hate anyone doing pve, why because they think they have everything already and can't understand why everyone else does not.

But lets take this to its logical conclusion.

All mining stops. what happens the existing minerals on the market go through the roof , massively increasing the prices of the ships pvpers use, making them very risk adverse, thus slowing active pvp down a lot.

Now one step more. ah yes Missions/ incusions/sites and Ratting now must stop as...oh yer hate on pve.

No more income and no more minerals added to the market, making existing ships and modules skyrocket in price.

If you stop PVE you will have no more PVP unless you enjoy running around trying to dodge swarms of velators.



Actually, they can just seed in the modules and the items to make stuff. No, actually, they could seed in all the completed items, ships and modules.

All you have to do is kill other players, stations and POSes to get ISK from the opposing empires.

Then you can also just have everything automated, buy the best fits off the market and having nothing else but watch your ship pew pew and fly around for you.

Throw in some fancy explosions, make sure that newbies can only fly weak ships that are easy to kill and some CCP branded popcorn and I am sure a certain section of the EVE community would be absolutely thrilled with the lack of hassle and how "awesome" they would be. Roll

Strangely enough, I think a lot of us would be dissatisfied with the hollow game play. Blink

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2014-12-15 18:14:33 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Capt Starfox wrote:
I don't hate miners; I enjoy profiteering off their exploded spaceships.


A bit like squeezing blood out of a turnip, isn't it?



No it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with making profits off exploded spaceships, though.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#128 - 2014-12-15 18:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. And next time, leave me out of your 'translations'. ISD Ezwal.

Also, people don't hate miners. People who gank miners are just getting bullied at school so they need to bully someone back, and since they can't bully someone stronger than mice, they pick targets which eve balancing made weaker than mice - miners. I don't see ALL miner complains being valid, but some of them definitely are - if out of 6 barges only 1 is viable, there must be something wrong.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#129 - 2014-12-15 19:23:41 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

I dare you to tell me it's balanced.


It is. It's even unbalanced significantly in favor of the defenders thanks to the dec dodge exploit.

People like you need to realize that this game is not, in any way built on the assumption that you have a right to be left alone. Ever.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#130 - 2014-12-15 20:55:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

I dare you to tell me it's balanced.


It is. It's even unbalanced significantly in favor of the defenders thanks to the dec dodge exploit.

People like you need to realize that this game is not, in any way built on the assumption that you have a right to be left alone. Ever.


On the reverse side of that, if they fix the dodge I want:


  • Defenders to be able to extend wars indefinitely for free.
  • Defenders to be able with confirmation from other corps and alliances to add them to their side of the war.
  • Fleets to be temporary war dec members with cool down timers.


That way you need to gather some intel and plan a war, not just dec every random one you want to prey off of when they use trade hubs.

Bitten off more than you can chew? Great! Choke on it! Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#131 - 2014-12-15 20:59:59 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#132 - 2014-12-15 21:30:55 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:




Defenders to be able to extend wars indefinitely for free.


This already exists.

Quote:
Defenders to be able with confirmation from other corps and alliances to add them to their side of the war.


So does this. Do you even play this game?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-12-15 22:30:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:




Defenders to be able to extend wars indefinitely for free.


This already exists.

Quote:
Defenders to be able with confirmation from other corps and alliances to add them to their side of the war.


So does this. Do you even play this game?


Both of those are indeed already in the game and both proved to not be as usefull as people might make them up to be. On paper, it's extremely powerful but the defenders usually would rather not fight the war in the first place so extending it is counter productive from their point of view and paying allies also is, from their point of view again, as they didn't want that fight anyway.

There are 4 groups of player that can be involved into high sec wardecs.

1- Wardeccers looking for fights.
2- Wardeccers looking for kills.
3- Defenders who want to fights.
4- Defenders who don't want to fights

The first group rarely cry about anything because at the end of the day, if they don't get fight out of deccing a corp, they know they can always dec a corp who does fight and they will get some. They probably have memorized a list of corp they know will always fight and they keep them as "backup decs" if too many other target decided to fold/turtle in station or at least they should...

The second group we hear about more often because they don't get what they want out of the system. The defenders control the end result and that is no OK for them. Somehow they seem to overlook the fact that since you can't force someone to undock, a wardec will never be guaranteed to give you what they are looking for. I see where they are coming from but they always look like someone who saw too much potential into something.

The third group is silent. They get what they want for free.

The forth group is not trying. Some of them know how to work with the mechanic in place but others completely fails at it.I'm not sure how they can miss that but they are pretty vocal which showcase their failure.

Unless the high sec corps get dramatically changed from what they are right now, the wardec system will stay as it is and some people will keep failing at understanding what they can do about it while other won't accept it's limitation.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#134 - 2014-12-15 22:52:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

I dare you to tell me it's balanced.


It is. It's even unbalanced...


Two answers, both wrong, both mutually contradictory. Logic, mothershipper, do you speak it?
Anyway, I'm not getting into this debate again, no use arguing with mentally ill ones. It'll be like telling CODE. that people have mined before, and see them gasp in fervor.

The discussion is about mining, which is in unhealthy state.

Griefers gonna grief, of course. Next day you nerf minmatar and everyone switches griefing from mining ships to minmatar ones, because they're desperate to grief someone who's by no good reason has been made weaker than mice. That is the reason for "hating" the miners - griefers need a reason to grief, they can't grief someone better, so they are desperate to make miners look worse - we have a number of notable examples of that obsessive-compulsive disorderly behavior in this thread. That behavior allows them to self-justify their griefing, because they pick on "baddies", and when you ask them why are they bad, you're going to see some very thin reasoning, if any.

tl;dr that isn't hate, that's just sad people pulling justification for their griefing out of thin air, miners just happened to be a target of that due to ship balance reasons (see all those new Skiff EHP whines every week, and occasional Procurer/Mackinaw EHP whines when yet another fail gank fails).

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#135 - 2014-12-15 22:56:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Defenders to be able to extend wars indefinitely for free.
This already exists.
Quote:
Defenders to be able with confirmation from other corps and alliances to add them to their side of the war.

So does this. Do you even play this game?


It has been three years since I cared that I was war dec'ed. So, I haven't bothered looking into it.

Really? Indefinitely for free where the attacker can't back out unless you let them and you can bring in as many allies as you like for free also?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#136 - 2014-12-15 22:58:40 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

It has been three years since I cared that I was war dec'ed. So, I haven't bothered looking into it.

Really? Indefinitely for free where the attacker can't back out unless you let them and you can bring in as many allies as you like for free also?


Not quite as far as the defender extending a war, but they can be made mutual. RvB does this, most notably. And as for allies, yes.

And as for talking about things without bothering to look into them.

Don't.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-12-15 22:59:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

It has been three years since I cared that I was war dec'ed. So, I haven't bothered looking into it.

Really? Indefinitely for free where the attacker can't back out unless you let them and you can bring in as many allies as you like for free also?


It's called a mutual war. The attacker can still back out. Not sure how one is started, but I do know that they're awesome.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#138 - 2014-12-15 23:04:16 UTC
And once again I have rung for the mods to put an end to Basil's street corner ranting about "griefing".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#139 - 2014-12-15 23:04:32 UTC
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
I doubt ratters are getting 20m ticks without shiny BS (e.g. pirate/marauder) or carriers.
Not sure about mission runners.
Incursions are 90-200m/hour, so it depends. 90 is for the noob groups, 200 for high class blitzing groups that get lucky. 120 is pretty standard.
It's worse than PI, but PI is a passive income
20 minutes of PI per day (not including setup times) average (updating the extractors, hauling). 600m/month. That's 600m for 600 minutes of work. so 1m/minute.
Yeah, wormholers are just rich. They do some of the hardest PvE and have to deal with logistics, which is a pain (unless they day trip, but that's not as good). It's also annoying to find a good place to set up, and you'll probably require a corp for extended stays. The risk is also pretty high and you need to probe a lot.
FW is largely variable isk. 60-90m/hour, if you manage to farm uninterrupted, but that's hard to do, because people are always hunting.
Industrials as in people that invent/research/manufacture? Well, that depends on who you're comparing it to, but probably in man hours, less isk/hour, yeah.
Traders have no steady ISK/hour. But the high end traders are able to make more than most other activities in the game.
Not really, the profit would be roughly equal to hauling a freighter, but that's not steady isk like most other activities, because other people could take the contracts/high end contracts, you need to keep lots of isk in liquid for collateral, but if you could get constant contracts, and assuming it takes 4 minutes/system (to travel), you're making like 250k/minute, which is like 15m/hour. Which is about 3/4 what a linked miner can make.

The point was not to make a complete present-moment comparison of income levels. The point was to highlight that there is an overwhelming number of professions which do not rely on minerals for their income, and thus your income does not scale automatically with mineral prices. Actually, it does with everything you can build from minerals - which is T1 ships and meta0 modules. With anything else, and that's pretty darn big group of stuff, it does scale compared to how much ISK people of other income sources are throwing in it - and this is the reason mining for profit is dead at the moment: because literally any other activity in the game is above it.
That, and 4 minutes per system sound like bs. It takes 6 minutes to cross Thera, you know.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Abla Tive
#140 - 2014-12-15 23:18:32 UTC
As a miner, one of life's little pleasures is to go fetch a coffee and then return to the computer to see your retriever smouldering, a cloud of Concorde drones and a wrecked Catalyst beside the rock you are pounding.

Don't forget to type 'gf' in local to the lazy ganker hiding in station who could not be bothered to check if you had your damage control running. I consider it the social thing to do.