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Intergalactic Summit

 
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On victory.

Author
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2014-12-14 19:59:20 UTC
Personally, I just hope we get a nice shiny medal to immortalise this moment. Then get back to the business of keeping this little release valve running so that we keep the losses in capsuleer hands, rather than allowing our respective nations to shoulder the butcher's bill in full.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2014-12-14 21:12:08 UTC
I'm fairly sure it will be a sultry day on Home before Pyre accepts a contract from the FDU.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2014-12-15 02:49:06 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
We do not control who is allowed membership in the 24IC. No militia has any kind of real recruitment standards whatsoever, because every militia is just a privateer organization paying independent contractors to fight as proxies,

Then your compatriots are showing an awful lot of pride in their Empire being given a temporary upper hand in a meaningless, unwinnable war by privateers and independent contractors, but anyone would think from the amount of crowing being done about this illusory victory it was loyal crusaders who'd won all the battles, not faithless privateers.

Samira Kernher wrote:
Furthermore, it is not our "petty obsession with subjugation" that lead to this war. We weren't the ones that broke the peace treaties to which we had agreed upon during the foundation of CONCORD.

See, here's a thing. Due to... events in Collelie, I no longer subject myself to the cognitive dissonance of pretending that the Elder Fleet invasion of the Amarr Empire was justified while Tibus Heth's invasion of Federation space wasn't. In the benefit of hindsight, I think they were both wrong.

But here's a thing that the Empire should realise. Every single trouble they've ever had with the Minmatar, big or small, can be traced back to the Day of Darkness when the Empire chose to use a moment of weakness to destroy a civilization and force its people into brutal, pitiless servitude. You can try and justify this any way you want - I've heard literally every version of the religious duty argument, so don't bother wasting time trying to explain it to me. I don't believe in your God, I don't believe in your religion, and I certainly don't believe in your right to rule the cosmos. Seven hundred years and a successful genocide later, the Minmatar departed the Amarr Empire, reclaiming their freedom and independence and desperately seeking to repair their shattered, traumatised culture.

Amarr are fond of using insultingly condescending parent-child metaphors, so here's one to stick in your pipe and smoke - the Amarr kidnapped a child, stuffed it in a basement and abused it horifically, and are now crying crocodile tears because the child grew up violent, angry and unpredictable.

It seems that some Amarr who are less than convinced of their military's superiority or the divine protection of their god fear that if the Minmatar ever had the power to do so, they would massacre every Amarrian, glass every Imperial planet and keep destroying until the only evidence that Amarr had ever existed were the deep, indellible psychological scars on their culture. I don't know if this is true - certainly, most of the Minmatar I'm friends with don't advocate such a drastic course of action - but if it is, and it happened, it wouldn't be justified, but Amarrians would have no right to act surprised about it. Every problem the Amarrians have ever had with the Minmatar could have been avoided had they simply left them alone. In fact, do you know what the most hideous irony is? If the Empire had come to the Minmatar in peace, offered to share their knowledge and skill with them as equals? They would probably have joined your religion willingly.

The Minmatar are suffering from seven centuries of brutal cultural trauma inflicted upon them by the people you serve. They've been free for only a century, and they're still not free of the spectre of the abuse, torture and cultural erasure they suffered at the hands of the Amarr. And Amarr has been about as shoddy about upholding its obligations as anyone else - when I used to work for Quafe in Lustrevik, literally every day I was rescuing Minmatar citizens from slave camps guarded by Imperial Navy ships that dropped the identification tags of Imperial Navy officers.

The Empire might not be wholy evil, but it certainly isn't any better than the rest of us.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2014-12-15 03:08:52 UTC
To be completely honest, my experiences over the last few years have suggested to me that the Minmatar have, if anything, shown admirable restraint and tolerance towards the Empire.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2014-12-15 04:26:36 UTC
Where were all the people preaching the 'admirable restraint' of the Caldari in only targeting Home when we invaded Gallente space? The double standards here are a bit nauseating.

None of which blocks the truth, however. Recognition of the achievement in the warzone must always be balanced with the knowledge that taking and holding are two different things and that TRUE strength would be finding a lasting resolution to the differences between the two sides.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2014-12-15 04:33:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Where were all the people preaching the 'admirable restraint' of the Caldari in only targeting Home when we invaded Gallente space?

Tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of dead Navymen in Algogille.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#127 - 2014-12-15 05:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Amarr gives up a significant chunk of its territory, recognizes insurgents as a sovereign nation, ends slave-taking outside of its borders, releases tens of thousands of slaves to the Republic when we had no obligation to do so...

And yet, according to Mr. Hakatain, the Republic are the ones showing "admirable restraint and tolerance"? By breaking treaties they agreed to, assaulting intersteller diplomatic headquarters, and attacking their own allies?

Right.

Amarr has, since the foundation of CONCORD, made greater sacrifices than the Republic did for the purposes of interstellar peace. It is why His Holiness Heideran VII received the Aidonis. The Minmatar, meanwhile, have taken everything they were given and spat on the hands that fed them. And I'm not referring to slavery here. The Republic as it is today exists only because of the charity of others.



@Andreus: Believe what you will about the invasion. Amarr are conquerers and we did conquer the Minmatar. But that happened as two independent nations with no formal diplomatic relations. That is not the case now. We sacrificed, and the Minmatar sacrificed, for the peace that we shared for a century. We gave up territory and swore an oath not to invade the territories of other CONCORD signatories, and in return the Republic respected the right of Amarr to hold slaves, and gave up their claim on the Minmatar still being held in the Empire, and swore to uphold peace between our nations.

We recognize that what happened before has angered the Minmatar. It's something they make quite known. It is not a surprise that they are angry. What the Empyrean War is, is a disappointment. His Holiness had a vision for interstellar peace, and Amarr worked towards that peace. The Minmatar did too, until just a few years ago.

The fact is this: Now that the Republic has broken its treaties, it has raised the question of where Amarr goes from here. If we cannot trust interstellar diplomacy, because those we entreat with refuse to honor their obligations, then why should we continue to pursue it further? Why should we not simply allow our current treaties to expire and withdraw from negotiations? By breaking their treaties, the Minmatar have done much to erode everything all four of our nations built up since CONCORD's founding.

Call it justified and expected if you want. But the fact is that Amarr did try, and did make sacrifices for peace. We did start the first Amarr-Minmatar war, but we did not start this one.
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#128 - 2014-12-15 05:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: John Revenent
Although late. On behalf of the Ishukone-Raata Enforcement Directive, I wish to congratulate our allied pilots within Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris and those loyal to the Amarr Empire for their victory. It is indeed an accomplishment.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#129 - 2014-12-15 05:32:49 UTC
Thank you, Admiral Revenent.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-12-15 05:38:34 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Amarr gives up a significant chunk of its territory,

That never belonged to it.

Samira Kernher wrote:
recognizes insurgents as a sovereign nation,

Insurgents against a brutal, unprovoked occupation and subjugation of their culture.

Samira Kernher wrote:
ends slave-taking outside of its borders

Except everyone, including the Amarr, know this isn't true. Anyone who works for any Level II mission agent in Gallente or Minmatar space will be sent to break up the efforts of Amarrian slavers who bear Imperial Navy insignia daily, if not more often.

Samira Kernher wrote:
@Andreus: Believe what you will about the invasion. Amarr are conquerers and we did conquer the Minmatar.

Then stop trying to make out as if you have any right to complain when those you conquered, continue to attempt to conquer and continue to hold in undesired servitude continue to want to wipe you off the map.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#131 - 2014-12-15 05:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Amarr gives up a significant chunk of its territory,

That never belonged to it.


By that statement, much of colonized Federation space doesn't belong to it either, because apparently you believe that the taking and settling of empty systems does not belong to the colonizing nation.

When we conquered the Minmatar, they held three systems. What they received after the Great Rebellion was far more than just three systems. Much of today's Republic is made up of former sovereign Amarr territories. The vast majority of those worlds never had native human presence, only Amarrian colonies.

Quote:
Except everyone, including the Amarr, know this isn't true. Anyone who works for any Level II mission agent in Gallente or Minmatar space will be sent to break up the efforts of Amarrian slavers who bear Imperial Navy insignia daily, if not more often.


Yes, we have criminals and rogues who act illegally in violation of our laws. We punish these ourselves when they are uncovered.

Quote:
Then stop trying to make out as if you have any right to complain when those you conquered, continue to attempt to conquer and continue to hold in undesired servitude continue to want to wipe you off the map.


We have a right to complain when those with whom we have entered into legal bindings break said bindings.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-12-15 06:06:16 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
@Andreus: Believe what you will about the invasion. Amarr are conquerers and we did conquer the Minmatar. But that happened as two independent nations with no formal diplomatic relations. That is not the case now. We sacrificed, and the Minmatar sacrificed, for the peace that we shared for a century. We gave up territory and swore an oath not to invade the territories of other CONCORD signatories, and in return the Republic respected the right of Amarr to hold slaves, and gave up their claim on the Minmatar still being held in the Empire, and swore to uphold peace between our nations.

Except the Amarr has never respected any treaty it's ever signed with any other foreign power - it has merely given the appearence of respecting it so that it can claim some sort of phony moral superiority when others violate their treaties more obviously. Imperial Navy ships have been launching slaving raids into Republic, Federation and, yes, even State space for as long as I've been a capsuleer. They have set up illegal, unregulated stargates - much in the same way scum like the Serpentis or the Cartel do - to assist in the taking of slaves from foreign space more efficiently and quickly. The Amarr have made it very clear in both statement and action that the only reason they abide by treaties at all is because it gives them time to wait for a better opportunity to conquer and subjugate.

And for reference, the Amarr have never agreed to acknowledge the Minmatar Republic as a sovereign, independent nation - only as a fellow signatory of the CONCORD charter. The Amarr's official diplomatic position on the Republic has never been anything other than a rebellious province which it is currently politically inconvenient to attempt to re-subjugate. I'm not going to use the word "reclaim" here because it delivers the entirely false impression that the things you're attempting to take from the Minmatar were ever yours to begin with.

What you're essentially saying is "Amarr are better because when we break our treaties, we try to hide it!"

Samira Kernher wrote:
The fact is this: Now that the Republic has broken its treaties, it has raised the question of where Amarr goes from here. If we cannot trust interstellar diplomacy, because those we entreat with refuse to honor their obligations, then why should we continue to pursue it further? Why should we not simply allow our current treaties to expire and withdraw from negotiations? By breaking their treaties, the Minmatar have done much to erode everything all four of our nations built up since CONCORD's founding.

Why should you continue to negotiate peace with the Minmatar?

Because they will burn you to ash if you do not.

Laugh if you want. I know other Amarrians have, but I've given this warning before and I've never seen anything to suggest that it isn't true. The Republic will not be slaves ever again. They will not bow to the Empire or to its God ever again. They know to which end that leads - abuse, murder, chemical compliance, cultural erasure, the theft of their scientific and technological accomplishments to serve the ego of their masters, ethnic cleansing and genocide. I have seen it - Minmatar will most probably die before they go back to that. They will most certainly kill. If the Republic feels that its destruction is inevitable at the hands of the Amarrians, even the most moderate voices will turn to acts of absolute last resort. Supercapitals will be rammed into stations. Cities will be bombarded from orbit. There will be sabotage, extortion, suicide bombers, assassinations, mass murders. Have you ever read the Tales of the Rebellion?

"Our people assaulted the ship en masse. Those with weapons fired at it, those without hurled whatever was at hand even though they knew such acts to be futile. This is how the last of the Amarrian ships fled our world."
- Unknown Author, "Tales of the Rebellion", Minmatar Archives

Minmatar will resist you, even if such actions cannot possibly avail them of victory. If the only alternative is slavery, every free Minmatar will become a terrorist. They will not go back. Every resource at their disposal - and trust me, if anyone is good at turning seemingly useless junk into remarkably efficient machines of war, it's the Minmatar - will be turned to making sure that if they are to lose the war, the Empire most certainly won't win. If the Republic is to die, trillions of Amarrians will most certainly join them in the grave. When Verin says that the Minmatar have shown remarkable restraint and patience with the Empire, this is what he means. What you have seen is only a jealous shadow of what the Minmatar are capable of.

Do you understand, Samira, that the Elder Fleet invasion is a result of Minmatar asking precisely the same question as you? "What can diplomacy benefit us?" If you want to know why Amarrians should continue pursuing diplomacy, it's because you really don't want more Minmatar ending up with the same answer the Elder Fleet did.

Samira Kernher wrote:
We did start the first Amarr-Minmatar war, but we did not start this one.

That much is true. But the consequences of the first Amarr-Minmatar war are still hanging over your heads today. It is a mistake you cannot unmake.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2014-12-15 06:09:24 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Yes, we have criminals and rogues who act illegally in violation of our laws. We punish these ourselves when they are uncovered.

Then why are these slave camps consistently demonstrated to be acting under Imperial authority, defended by Imperial admirals and selling the people they kidnap on Imperial markets? If these are not officially sanctioned raids, either your Navy and its command structure is irretrievably corrupt, or it's totally inept and completely unable to control its own members.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#134 - 2014-12-15 06:14:11 UTC
They are not sanctioned.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-12-15 06:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Samira Kernher wrote:
They are not sanctioned.

Then explain why they have been happening in every constellation of Minmatar space - not to mention other places - every day, occasionally multiple times a day, for as long as I've been a capsuleer, and quite apart from the fact that in the wreckage of every single ship can be found a valid, verifiable Imperial Navy identification tag, you can often also find documents indicating Imperial sanction in the slave camps. Long before the Empyrean War was even something people thought possible, I was clearing out Imperial slave camps. Long after the Empyrean War began, I was clearing out Imperial slave camps. If I still ran missions for Republic or Federal agents, I would still be clearing out Imperial slave camps.

And if these aren't beign operated with Imperial sanction, why is it that I can take the identification tags I've discovered to Empire space and instead of rewarding me for clearing out "unsanctioned" slave camps which would obviously cause diplomatic incidents if they were discovered, they instead accuse me of violating Imperial Customs regulations? This implies that if these slave camps aren't sanctioned, the Imperial Navy don't have a clue about how many of its members, let alone which, are acting outside of its control.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Ridha Shakir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2014-12-15 09:38:27 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
They are not sanctioned I think.


I have added the missing part for you. It could also read "I wish" in fact. If you want Navy dog tags for proof I can contract some to you.

Matter of fact is that the Navies give a damn about what you or I think. All kinds of shady business is going on behind the veil of happy CONCORD treaty land. The difference is that you are in denial as you apparently do not want to see what your Navy and holders are doing behind that veil while I can applaud every single raid into the Empire to free enslaved brothers and sisters. Should make you wonder if you are really fighting for the right cause.



"Though free I am bound by the chains of my brothers"
- Inscription from a stone in the Remembering
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2014-12-15 10:36:30 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Where were all the people preaching the 'admirable restraint' of the Caldari in only targeting Home when we invaded Gallente space?


I don't think the words "admirable restraint" really belong anywhere near an operation masterminded by Tibus Heth.

The invasion was as disciplined and efficient as dictated by the high standards and traditions of the Caldari Navy. IT was an economical invasion, rather than a restrained one.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2014-12-15 11:18:55 UTC
I don't think restraint is a trait which can really pertain to an invasion in any case.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#139 - 2014-12-15 12:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
well, restraint comes in at the moment where invasion becomes occupation, but you're right, invasion is an inherently aggressive, unrestrained action.

As I said, the word I'd use over the retaking of Home would be "disciplined". Our forces did not allow themselves to be distracted from their objective. Personally, I'm glad it happened. Make of that what you will.

The Republic, meanwhile, has an ongoing cassus belli as you have mentioned. Their continued (albeit icy) civility to the Amarr in such circumstances demonstrates, for my money, a very level head indeed. Which rather runs contrary to the unfair stereotype of the "brash and angry Minmatar", doesn't it?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Varathius
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2014-12-15 13:22:50 UTC
Chronoxi wrote:
This is a victory, a long awaited one, but the rebellion against God's will remains at large.

As many already know, imperial forces are nearing total control over warzones in The Bleak Lands, Heimatar, Devoid, and Metropolis. The terrorists still controls three systems: Helgatild, Arnstur and Evati. Helgatild and Arnstur are expected to be reclaimed within a few days as we have already seized numerous terrorist staging points and infrastructures, and Evati will fall soon after the reclaiming of Helgatild and Arnstur.

We have made great progress with our righteous crusade! We must utilize our current position of power to penetrate deeper into the 'republic', putting down this blasphemous rebellion!

Now, more so than ever, do we need a pious heart dedicated for greatness.
Now, more so than ever, do we need a strong and united effort against the heathens!

An excellent opportunity is presented to us, an opportunity to save the heathens from an eternity in hell. We must destroy the terrorists and return the subjects of God back into a pious life in service to God!

I have this to say to the Matar terrorists: abandon all hopes, we will not stop until you are brought before the law and face judgement for treason.


Amarr Victor !!

Now the time has come for our decoration :)