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T3 Freighters! ^.^
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Shivanthar
#21 - 2014-12-13 13:23:44 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So I take it this is a t3 ship, IE one that can only be built with stuff from wormholes, that is designed never to leave highsec, right?

Of the modes you list, only the warp speed one is actually relevant to anything, but since the things are BS sized it'll be warping at all of 4AU/s. Since a blockade runner warps at almost double that unrigged, what's the point?


Danika, I know you're one of the toughest to convince ^.^

May I kindly request you to look at some numbers? BTW, I just updated some stuff, where you can find changes under "edit" section Blink

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-12-13 15:17:19 UTC
At a quick glance these look better than the current tech II haulers as they have 20% larger hold and wierd modes. By wierd I mean unfeasible and OP. Haulers are fine right now in the main and I'd rather see how t3 destroyers pan out and the perhaps apply to bc's where there's currently a hole in ship usage. Diverting power to guns whilst sacricing armour resists or scarificing dps for speed actually fits perfectly with the philosophy of BC's perhaps with speed mode boosting them on warp speed to keep up with cruisers too. Much like the original design specs for heavy cruisers/BC's in real world navies.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-12-13 18:59:18 UTC
TBH I think T3 industrials ought to follow the pattern of the strat cruisers, in being a hull on which modules hang. The usual modules are available, such as defense and navigation, plus a new class of cargohold modules. There are several different types, from the general purpose ones like all ships have to the specialists, such as ore holds. These modules can fit into any of the 5 slots available, and multiple instances can be fitted to the same hull. This enables the pilot to tailor the ship to his requirements, from blockade running to tanky, with various holds to maximise capacity.

Currently it looks like people want to create an exotic ship, whereas I think a high degree of flexibility is best.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2014-12-13 23:30:21 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So I take it this is a t3 ship, IE one that can only be built with stuff from wormholes, that is designed never to leave highsec, right?

Of the modes you list, only the warp speed one is actually relevant to anything, but since the things are BS sized it'll be warping at all of 4AU/s. Since a blockade runner warps at almost double that unrigged, what's the point?


Danika, I know you're one of the toughest to convince ^.^

May I kindly request you to look at some numbers? BTW, I just updated some stuff, where you can find changes under "edit" section Blink



Okay. In general, your cargohold is downright stupid. T3s are jacks of all trades, masters of none, but you've gone and made these the absolute biggest subcapital haulers in the game, bigger than the hyper specialised T2 versions? The same can be said of the EHP you've given them.

Your slot layout is nonsense. Even the T1s can mount some kind of a tank rather than just relying purely on their native resists and hull bonuses, so..why not these?

Of the racial variants, the caldari one is the only one anyone would fly. Since these are designed never to even consider leaving highsec, only the biggest will be flown. Like iteron Vs used to be.

As for your modes:

Mimesis: Useless gimmick. If you want stealth, use a blockade runner.

Katharsis: So it's like a blockade runner, except worse?

Kairosis: So it's like a fat, slow blockade runner, but worse?

Kenosis: Other than allowing the CFC into jove space, what is the point of this?
Shivanthar
#25 - 2014-12-14 09:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Danika Princip wrote:

Okay. In general, your cargohold is downright stupid. T3s are jacks of all trades, masters of none, but you've gone and made these the absolute biggest subcapital haulers in the game, bigger than the hyper specialised T2 versions? The same can be said of the EHP you've given them.


In principle, since they fill between cruiser - and capital industrial, cargohold should be between them. That was the most basic thinking behind it. Same goes for the ehp. These are BS hulls first of allBlink

Danika Princip wrote:

Your slot layout is nonsense. Even the T1s can mount some kind of a tank rather than just relying purely on their native resists and hull bonuses, so..why not these?


I expect this one Cool. In eve, there is an inverted logic with slot layout and hauler size. The bigger it is, the lesser fitting options it has. Same goes here. Less than cruiser, more than capital industrial fittings. This tradeoff along with the offline modules after kenosis warp and 0 cap, ensures that it is stoppable.

Danika Princip wrote:

Of the racial variants, the caldari one is the only one anyone would fly. Since these are designed never to even consider leaving highsec, only the biggest will be flown. Like iteron Vs used to be.


It is personal preference I can't interfere with that ^.^

Danika Princip wrote:

As for your modes:

Mimesis: Useless gimmick. If you want stealth, use a blockade runner.

Katharsis: So it's like a blockade runner, except worse?

Kairosis: So it's like a fat, slow blockade runner, but worse?

Kenosis: Other than allowing the CFC into jove space, what is the point of this?


Mimesis: This is designed with not stealth, just visual camo in mind.

Katharsis: Cargo scan immunity is what industrial community has been looking for. It has its tradeoffs.

Kairosis: I can't quite understand your point here. It is BS, has the properties close to regular bs hulls. This mode makes it faster at the expense of defense (diverting power from defense grid to engine)

Kenosis: Going to jove space with this is no different than the millenium-we all gonna die hoax. Point in this is to create a new way to travel interstellar distance with time presence. Current jump mechanics teleports you from point A to point B. Instead, this one actually calculates your distance before warp and make you wait for your interstellar warp. I want to make sure that people won't get into the feeling of negating gates or any other. There are so many tradeoffs involved with this you can't possibly miss.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-12-14 10:23:13 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Mimesis: This is designed with not stealth, just visual camo in mind.

Visual camo in a game where most people only see things as colored squares and use the overview to pick targets is exactly as Danika Princip said; a useless gimick.
Shivanthar wrote:
Katharsis: Cargo scan immunity is what industrial community has been looking for. It has its tradeoffs.

Cargo scan immunity is already granted through plastic wrap. It is also an annoyance for empty blockade runners.
Shivanthar wrote:
Kenosis: Going to jove space with this is no different than the millenium-we all gonna die hoax.

If you really can't see how being able to jump to a sun, with no cyno or gate needed, can get you into a system with a sun but without cynos and gates, I don't know what to say.

In short, you have two useless modes, one that is an actual tradeoff but probably needs balance adjustment, and a fourth that is bat guano insane broken.

And I have no idea why they're all named after animals, when two of the races never name anything after animals.
Shivanthar
#27 - 2014-12-14 11:46:16 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Visual camo in a game where most people only see things as colored squares and use the overview to pick targets is exactly as Danika Princip said; a useless gimick.


Roger, I'll look for some unique ways to improve it.

Komi Toran wrote:

Cargo scan immunity is already granted through plastic wrap. It is also an annoyance for empty blockade runners.


This is where you don't need plastic wrap, in a jack-of-all-trades battleship hull.

Komi Toran wrote:

If you really can't see how being able to jump to a sun, with no cyno or gate needed, can get you into a system with a sun but without cynos and gates, I don't know what to say.


1- It is not new, however I'd like you to check the last entry in the "Key Base stats for all" saying: - Max system range to lock: 10ly
2- From an old thread asking how to go jove space, dev ccp prism states that: "you must be in a Polaris frigate which can only be operated with skills that don't exist in the game."

Komi Toran wrote:
And I have no idea why they're all named after animals, when two of the races never name anything after animals.


This is my friendly topic where I don't state people's mistakes. We all do mistakes. I am kindly reminding you to re-evaluate this statement ^.^

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Industrial Production Toon
Neptune PVP Corporation
#28 - 2014-12-14 12:49:27 UTC
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2014-12-14 17:00:38 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
snip


If you want cargo scan immunity with tradeoffs, why are you wanting to introduce the mechanic on a hull six times the size and with a lot more EHP than the hulls that are already cargo scan immune? If you want cargo scan immunity, the same as if you want stealth, you fly a blockade runner. Those have tradeoffs. This thing does not.

The concept of a tanky, slow hauler with a nicely sized cargo hold also already exists. It's called a deep space transport.

As for slots, can I just point out that the orca and rorqual are capital industrial ships, and neither of them attempt to pack a two slot shield tank?

And there's no personal preference involved. these are, clearly, ships designed never to leave highsec. With that in mind, why would anyone ever fly a ship that isn't the biggest?


And, how do you figure the jove space thing is a hoax? Look at a map like this one: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png and see where jove space is. It's the three uncoloured regions up top, with CFC space on two sides and XWX on a third. Some of those jumps would be well within any useful range you'd care to give the ship.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-12-14 20:05:57 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
This is where you don't need plastic wrap, in a jack-of-all-trades battleship hull.

But why would I bother training for it and invest isk in it when I can just contract it to myself? The alternative to this feature is cheap and accessible and just as effective, which means the feature is obsolete.
Shivanthar wrote:
1- It is not new, however I'd like you to check the last entry in the "Key Base stats for all" saying: - Max system range to lock: 10ly

So, you are admitting that you've never actually looked at the map, then?
Shivanthar wrote:
2- From an old thread asking how to go jove space, dev ccp prism states that: "you must be in a Polaris frigate which can only be operated with skills that don't exist in the game."

It would pay for you to read what you linked as well. The Polaris frigate can get you there because it allows you to transfer yourself wherever you want, not because there's some system check making sure the ship going to the system is a Polaris frigate.
Komi Toran wrote:
This is my friendly topic where I don't state people's mistakes. We all do mistakes. I am kindly reminding you to re-evaluate this statement ^.^

Re-evaluated. There are no Amarr or Gallente ships named after an animal. Zero. Zilch. Nadda. Goose-egg.
Shivanthar
#31 - 2014-12-14 20:47:04 UTC
Industrial Production Toon wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2816788#post2816788


Yep, I saw this one. I'm sorry about its ending tough What?

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#32 - 2014-12-14 21:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Danika Princip wrote:


If you want cargo scan immunity with tradeoffs, why are you wanting to introduce the mechanic on a hull six times the size and with a lot more EHP than the hulls that are already cargo scan immune? If you want cargo scan immunity, the same as if you want stealth, you fly a blockade runner. Those have tradeoffs. This thing does not.


You rip off features from an imagination to fit into a model that is acceptable in your head and when that image becomes doing same thing as some other ship, you just say "it is obsolete, use that instead". Can you think for a second as all modes included up and running ? Then see how different the picture is? The first line states that this is a interstellar BS hull. Let's start from there. Really.

Danika Princip wrote:

The concept of a tanky, slow hauler with a nicely sized cargo hold also already exists. It's called a deep space transport.


Yep, I know. But this is not that concept neither. This is filling a gap between cruiser sized and advanced capital industrials. Which is, as you can tell, battleship sized ones.

Danika Princip wrote:

As for slots, can I just point out that the orca and rorqual are capital industrial ships, and neither of them attempt to pack a two slot shield tank?


I see no hauling here:
"The Rorqual was conceived and designed by Outer Ring Excavations in response to a growing need for capital industry platforms with the ability to support and sustain large-scale mining operations in uninhabited areas of space"
and neither here:
"The Orca was developed as a joint venture between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc as a vessel to help meet the demands of New Eden's industry and provide a flexible platform from which mining operations can be more easily managed"

Those ships you mentioned are not haulers, but what people do with them doesn't negate the need of the haulers and it doesn't mean they shouldn't exist

Danika Princip wrote:

And there's no personal preference involved. these are, clearly, ships designed never to leave highsec. With that in mind, why would anyone ever fly a ship that isn't the biggest?


I'm still saying, when you think these ships as a whole, there is no point to not to go lowsec/nullsec. At one point you're telling ships are too tanky, on the other point you're telling they should only stay in highsec. Simply because you're leaving Kenosis out of the equation.

Danika Princip wrote:

And, how do you figure the jove space thing is a hoax? Look at a map like this one: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png and see where jove space is. It's the three uncoloured regions up top, with CFC space on two sides and XWX on a third. Some of those jumps would be well within any useful range you'd care to give the ship.


Hmm. You're right. Player opens the map, tries to lock the sun in jove space: "Locking that signature is prevented by an interference." Happy now?

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-12-14 21:29:29 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:

I see no hauling here:
"The Rorqual was conceived and designed by Outer Ring Excavations in response to a growing need for capital industry platforms with the ability to support and sustain large-scale mining operations in uninhabited areas of space"
and neither here:
"The Orca was developed as a joint venture between Outer Ring Excavations and Deep Core Mining Inc as a vessel to help meet the demands of New Eden's industry and provide a flexible platform from which mining operations can be more easily managed"

Those ships you mentioned are not haulers, but what people do with them [b]doesn't negate the need of the haulers and it doesn't mean they shouldn't exist

If they are not haulers, then why does ISIS say they are?
Shivanthar
#34 - 2014-12-14 22:07:01 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:

If they are not haulers, then why does ISIS say they are?


Where? O.o
All Capital Transportation ships are under the faction-specific Freighter group.
Do I miss something?
As far as I know, they are designed as the leading command ship of mining.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2014-12-14 22:12:51 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Snip


An interstellar BS hull. Described as a T3, as in, a jack of all trades, master of none. That makes every single other hauler, in every single other circumstance, with the possible exception of the cloak (And ONLY the cloak) on a blockade runner, completely obsolete? It's bigger and tankier than every T1 hull, has more base EHP and hold than the DSTs, has the cargohold immunity of the BRs, so other than it's slow warp speed, what is the downside?

Why do you think this BS sized hauler thing is a niche that needs filling?

The orca and the rorq are capital ships with large cargoholds, often used for hauling. ISIS lists them as haulers. If you want a bigger hauler than a DST, but smaller than a freighter, you use an orca with it's ~100-150k of cargo space. (I forget where it is on that range). Your opinion on what a ship does or does not count as does not change this.

Why would you use one of these in low or nullsec, given that the cost will presumably be much, much higher than that of a T1 hauler? If you're caught in a hauler in null, your tank will not save you. I have transport ships 4, own both gallente ones, and the ships I use to haul stuff in null, 9 times out of 10, are T1. If my occator goes down, that's a lot of ISK down the drain. If a miasmos does the same, it's completely disposable.
Aran Hotchkiss
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-12-14 22:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aran Hotchkiss
For a battleship hull, 60k m^3 is very close to the DST's native 50k m^3,even allowing for rigs/cargo expanders/hull bonuses to fleet hangars.

Also, t3. Eww.


Edit:
In addition, your racial resists confuse me. As it stands iirc,
Amarr: Exp/Kin
Minmatat: Em/Therm
Gallente: Kin/Therm
Caldari: Therm/Kin

Whilst the t2 resist magnitude differs from ship to ship, it applies to both armour and shields.

I'm using a phone with anemic speed, so I won't link stats, but your proposition is way out of line with normal racial resists.

You should have enough control over your herd of cats to make them understand. If they constantly make misstakes, get better cats.
Shivanthar
#37 - 2014-12-15 08:00:29 UTC
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:
For a battleship hull, 60k m^3 is very close to the DST's native 50k m^3,even allowing for rigs/cargo expanders/hull bonuses to fleet hangars.

Also, t3. Eww.


Edit:
In addition, your racial resists confuse me. As it stands iirc,
Amarr: Exp/Kin
Minmatat: Em/Therm
Gallente: Kin/Therm
Caldari: Therm/Kin

Whilst the t2 resist magnitude differs from ship to ship, it applies to both armour and shields.

I'm using a phone with anemic speed, so I won't link stats, but your proposition is way out of line with normal racial resists.


Yeah, I need a fine tuning on those. Thanks for the point.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-12-15 08:12:26 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:

If they are not haulers, then why does ISIS say they are?


Where? O.o
All Capital Transportation ships are under the faction-specific Freighter group.
Do I miss something?
As far as I know, they are designed as the leading command ship of mining.


Look at ISIS. Look at the little icons that appear at the top when you hover over a ship. Those tell you the ship's roles. It's also why they also get a 90% reduction to jump fatigue, because that is a universal trait of all haulers.
Shivanthar
#39 - 2014-12-15 08:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Danika Princip wrote:

An interstellar BS hull. Described as a T3, as in, a jack of all trades, master of none. That makes every single other hauler, in every single other circumstance, with the possible exception of the cloak (And ONLY the cloak) on a blockade runner, completely obsolete? It's bigger and tankier than every T1 hull, has more base EHP and hold than the DSTs, has the cargohold immunity of the BRs, so other than it's slow warp speed, what is the downside?


Yep, first sentence describes why it has more ehp than cruiser hulls. In order to achieve its special properties, it trades many bonuses to enable them. Correct point. It doesn't make anything obsolete. In its explanation, it is written as "luxury industrial ship". I'll update the price tag.

If you're asking the downside, tell me its *magical* upside you're trying to imply, then I'll tell you why it is not point by point. That will make a better discussion. For example: when you say jack-of-all trades, it means it can do everything that same role filling ships can, while not as good as them. From this point, it is easier for you to see the downsides.

Danika Princip wrote:

Why do you think this BS sized hauler thing is a niche that needs filling?


I am looking into empty space where there can be possible ideas to implement and make game fun and interesting.

Danika Princip wrote:

The orca and the rorq are capital ships with large cargoholds, often used for hauling. ISIS lists them as haulers. If you want a bigger hauler than a DST, but smaller than a freighter, you use an orca with it's ~100-150k of cargo space. (I forget where it is on that range). Your opinion on what a ship does or does not count as does not change this.


So a bs hull still filing 60.000 base, 75000 skilled cargohold is filling something. On the other hand, I still yet to see where it says haulers for those two ships..

Danika Princip wrote:

Why would you use one of these in low or nullsec, given that the cost will presumably be much, much higher than that of a T1 hauler? If you're caught in a hauler in null, your tank will not save you. I have transport ships 4, own both gallente ones, and the ships I use to haul stuff in null, 9 times out of 10, are T1. If my occator goes down, that's a lot of ISK down the drain. If a miasmos does the same, it's completely disposable.


This whole point is actually is the answer of your "It doesn't make anything obsolete". Exactly. Risk vs. reward. Your scout says "ok go ahead, warp yourself". You lock on the sun in null. Enabled Kenosis mode. Sun turned blue (anybody wants catchable sign? look at that sun!), ship entered into warp, it is a hands-crossed situation from then. If your scouts are careful, you wouldn't be caught by any surprise. Btw, that would make it particularly a one-way trip in a handful amount of time, given no bonuses to jump fatigue, since you will receive same penalty as jumping when doing interstellar activity.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#40 - 2014-12-15 08:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Komi Toran wrote:

Look at ISIS. Look at the little icons that appear at the top when you hover over a ship. Those tell you the ship's roles. It's also why they also get a 90% reduction to jump fatigue, because that is a universal trait of all haulers.


Thanks. I was about to go crazy because everybody sees something and I can't! Finally... (Catches breath) Big smile
Edit: Updated some stats Blink

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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