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Dev blog: Physically Based Rendering and making EVE look "Real"

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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#141 - 2014-12-12 02:31:04 UTC
Submitted, then afterwards I confirmed, its not just the nado. In fact, I found an uglier ship in the process, the mega look absolutely appalling in that spot too.

Also saw how overkill the sensor sweep is... it was bright/overpowering enough it blocked out the planet as it went through. And yet I can't turn off the dumb sweep no matter how hard I try, unless I'm missing something hidden somewhere.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#142 - 2014-12-12 07:39:06 UTC
How is anyone complaining about Gallente hulls? They look totally badass now. Dat Myrmidon...

The new lighting system has really improved the look of the game. I do have one complaint. More than ever now are the questionable texture qualities apparent. The Rattlesnake is an easy example of this.

We need high-res textures.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Atricc
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2014-12-12 11:07:43 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Gallente ships in particular have had a significant loss of 'green' to them, was that intentional?

There are a bunch of old vs new ships that have the same shader, leading to a situation where if you tweak it to make one generation look better, it's going to harm the other generation (e.g. old Caldari ships like the Rokh and Naga with large amounts of matte, vs. new Caldari ships like the Condor and the Blackbird). Any plans to divide and tweak the generational materials/shaders separately?



Chrome spray-paint delux..... Plastic looking! do they bend>?
Personally "Dislike"
Atricc
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2014-12-12 11:10:08 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hey random ass question in case my memory is fragged:
Didn't Khanid ships (Vengance, Sacrelige, etc.) used to have a silver and metallic blue paintjob?

Under PBR it is silver and grey (i'd describe the color as graphite), but my mind is saying that's not quite right.

Khanid are supposed to be Silver-very dark gray/black.

Why does the Ark look like a cheap Chinese plastic toy model? What is the reasoning behind removing its 2 different gold tones, which actually looked like solid gold plating, and replacing them with this uniform layer of gold foil on top of plastic surface?

Why do ships look flatter and less detailed than before?

Why was this feature released even though it is neither nearly finished nor polished nor are we remotely close to anything that requires it? Why is it not labeled Beta like the map?



Agreed .
waltari
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#145 - 2014-12-12 12:52:19 UTC
Will be there a way to disable this new lulzy shiny like dogs balls textures? Seriously, did you take a look on some of the ships? From what i can randomly shoot, Apocalypse is horrible, so is Ishtar and Hyperion and my Paladin looks like ass. Some of the textures looks good indeed, nothing special but acceptable, but rest is like buncha cellophane that makes my eyes bleed.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#146 - 2014-12-12 14:57:31 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
How is anyone complaining about Gallente hulls? They look totally badass now. Dat Myrmidon...

The new lighting system has really improved the look of the game. I do have one complaint. More than ever now are the questionable texture qualities apparent. The Rattlesnake is an easy example of this.

We need high-res textures.

This is what is wrong with the entire Gallente line...

http://i.imgur.com/qpZWiwn.jpg?1

Like the work team responsible for actually painting the medium variant called in sick, but the foreman decided to call the job finished anyways, and if people didn't like the non-painted variant then they could just use the others instead.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#147 - 2014-12-12 15:15:55 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Found this gem when I was going to my recent screenshots... I know they say its not done yet as they only released like 1/3 of a full graphics system upgrade, but this just looks wrong.


It does look wrong. If you are able to go back to where you were and re-create the screenshot as part of a bug report through the F12 menu, we'll get a bunch of additional info that will help us identify why it looks like that under those circumstances.

To further clarify, its not just the Nado, and not just Jita. Seems to be anywhere. If you can put your ship in a place/direction that the side (or part of the ship you are looking at) is not being lit by the sun, and there is a large dark object between you and a bright nebula, you will see this effect.

I think the effect is still there the whole time, but most of the time you can't really see it because the screen is washed out by the bright nebula. Does that make sense? Like the textures are trying to reflect light from the nebula that is directly behind them (instead of at a reflective angle) and from a source that is through another object (or multiple, aka through the ship and on the other side of the planet). My guess is that since I've only really checked it in Caldari space with the white/blue nebula, that you would see a red glowing plastic like ship in Minnie space, and a brown effect in Amarr space.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#148 - 2014-12-12 18:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
CCP Vertex wrote:
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
...
--
Okay, so i narrowed the biggest "ugliness" culprit down....its the "shader quality"

With everything else set on "high"...here is what happens with the model when changing "shader quality" from high-medium-low....something is off here....

High
Medium
Low

Maybe someone (i don't know, maybe the Imbedded QA????) should test their stuff before saying its 'done'. Good form CCP.

I suspect it is like this for numerous other ships as well. But since i'm paying you (CCP) to test these sort of things while you are developing them...and not the other way around...i have other things more important to do.



Hi Lil' Brudder Too,

We most certainly consider and go to great lengths to investigate the visual and performance impact of our graphic features on a wide range of hardware, specifically using our minimum & recommended specification machines as control points.

You have discovered yourself that the ships don't look as good on Medium shader quality, this is because we do not include the dirt map in that shader model. This reduces the instruction count by roughly 50%, this was done purposefully to ensure players with mid-range hardware that cant cope with high settings can have improved performance at the cost of reduced visual fidelity.

I can see your GPU should be more than capable of running the client with high shader quality, if there is a reason such as performance issues that is forcing you to run on medium shader quality then we'd love to see a bug report from you so we can investigate.

This just in:

CCP Vertex has to explain to a rude player that Low and Medium graphics settings don't look at good as high graphics settings.

Patience of a Saint...

If calling someone out because it looks like they did not do their job is considered rude...i can live with that.

Also, re-read the underlined parts...and look at the pics again...i think you missed those the first time around. I wasn't complaining that "low and medium graphics look worse than high"...of course they will...i was merely pointing out that the Low actually has more texture and color than the Medium, which seems bassackwards to me.

CCP: so pray tell why have the "medium" setting if it doesn't even include what is in the "low"? How does the Medium Shader help increase performance over what the "low" does? (as seems to be your reasoning) If it does nothing better, but looks worse...what is the logical point of it? The ships on medium simply don't look like they are done. It looks like someone forgot to click a button to turn on a layer or forgot to create the layer altogether. (or a spawn for some particular required item, but that would never happen)

As to why i don't normally run "everything high"....because i multibox, and i like my PC the way it is...and want to keep it this way for as many years as i can...i don't want to have to replace hardware every year because i needlessly run high graphics 100% of the time on everything. Yes, running everything as hard as you can and will wear stuff out faster...its a electro-mechanical device, it takes wear. (and uses more electricity when pushed)

I was just curious why the Medium had less detailed (almost none infact) paint than the Low. And since you guys have a bad habit of not responding (or acknowledging) to the non-positive feedback posted in the Dev-created feedback threads for stuff you put on SiSi, (i posted this very issue specifically stating the Mega in the SiSi feedback thread...btw's) i was just making sure you guys even knew about it. Face it, CCP as a whole does seem to have a less than stellar history of fully QA'ing their releases.

I think they addressed your concerns fairly directly in the latest episode of 07.
Different levels of detail use different layers and effects, and some of those layers are having issues and will need to be tweaked. Especially anything having to do with the "dirt" layer. It will take a while to go through every model and make the appropriate adjustments, as well as modify the code handling the dirt layer.
They've been pretty up front about adjustments and fine tuning will be needed once it goes on the live server from day one.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#149 - 2014-12-12 18:31:38 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

The issues you raise are already topics of discussion on the art team as they talk about how to improve the first version of PBR. And, of course player opinions matter, positive or negative.


Sooo, why couldn't this have been the first thing stated when someone gave you feedback saying the gallente hulls specifically looked terribad? Instead of telling the people giving you the feedback to eat it? (maybe not you specifically, but that is the general tone we have gotten from the dev's) It took proding you guys for how long to finally get this response...finally...
CCP Darwin wrote:
That said, when you turn your comments against the people involved rather than the things you like or don't like about the work, you do risk them tuning out, which is a shame because you're raising comments about the work that have value.

Yet if ANY of the dev's would have responded like you just did now...with a "we see this is an issue" mentality, and not just saying "well, i advise you select the setting that you like most"....we wouldn't be in this situation now. (lets not forget all the feedback that was given, and seemingly ignored while this was on SiSi) You can't talk down to your customers, while NOT telling them they are infact showing you something that is an issue, then expect them to somehow know that you are infact looking into said issue...even though no Dev has ever said it. Then you get mad at us for constantly baggering you to look at the issue...of course we are...because you haven't answered it yet!!!

Its simply about communication. We (the general players saying the same thing i have been) gave you specific details about what was wrong with certain ships, every CCP response was either ignoring our feedback, or telling us to eat it. If that was not what your intention was, i suggest you tailor your replies in the future a little better.

How else should i go about saying "stop being a d-bag and listen to what i'm saying" while every response i see from a dev responding to this particular issue was generally "deal with it...either go full out or not at all." I'm sorry if i sound peeved off, but its because i am. Also, i try not to 'turn against' any particular dev, and usually try to address "CCP" as a whole...

Also, you might want to send someone over to update the "Rhea Issues" thread....or atleast show that you guys are still looking at it. (can you atleast see where my frustration is coming from?)

I think you are aptly named, considering the obvious chip on your shoulder.
You have gotten reasoned, considered answers and for the most part have responded with nothing but lip.
i would suggest that you drop the defensive attitude, realize that not every post is going to get a personal reply, and that if someone disagrees with your opinion it doesn't mean that they are telling you to "eat it".
In other words, try acting a little less like a stereotypical lil brudder... it's making you look bad and causes people to ignore what might otherwise be reasonably intelligent points you have made.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#150 - 2014-12-12 23:55:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I think you are aptly named, considering the obvious chip on your shoulder...try acting a little less like a stereotypical lil brudder...

You sir lose 10 internet points....

Lil' brudder


Okay, back on topic.

I understand where he is coming from. The responses CCP have given from the start have been "well if you don't like the setting, don't use it"...while he was trying to tell them something looked wrong with the setting, not that he 'didn't like it', but that something looked wrong. Apparently, all while they were already internally aware to some extent and were 'talking about' working on it. Yet, it wasn't until the final response that they actually answered that the issue with the gallente hulls is something they are talking about working on. If they had simply answered with that to begin with, he would have had no need to keep going back at them...that's how i read it anyway.

Gallente hulls, compared to every other faction, lack in the medium quality. Good comparison that was posted before. The medium on every other faction still has all the same colors. The Gallente though, drops colors on the medium setting. The argument from him was never 'medium looks worse than high'....because duh, it does and will always.

And no, a lot of us do not in fact watch o7. Sorry. But that is not where we look to for Dev responses on game issues.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2014-12-13 04:10:45 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
The responses CCP have given from the start have been "well if you don't like the setting, don't use it"...while he was trying to tell them something looked wrong with the setting, not that he 'didn't like it', but that something looked wrong. Apparently, all while they were already internally aware to some extent and were 'talking about' working on it. Yet, it wasn't until the final response that they actually answered that the issue with the gallente hulls is something they are talking about working on.


The art/graphics team is made up of a bunch of people who are expert in multiple disciplines. The reason I couldn't answer that the issue was being talked about earlier than I did is that I didn't know that was the case until I had the right conversations with the right people.

It's easy to see CCP posters on the forums as members of a monolithic entity where everyone has a perfect idea of what's going on and is 100% on-message at all times. Instead, we're each bringing our own personal understanding to the forums when we post.

I try to be careful to say only what I know to be true, because I don't want to make promises or claims that I can't back up. So, don't expect me to say "oh yeah problem A with ship X will be fixed on day Y" unless I know for sure that's the case.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Ginger Crystal
Ephemeral Cartography
#152 - 2014-12-13 06:45:18 UTC
Phong Model?! FXck that shXt. Physically. Based. Rendering! ~ Frank Booth
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#153 - 2014-12-13 10:33:10 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
The art/graphics team is made up of a bunch of people who are expert in multiple disciplines. The reason I couldn't answer that the issue was being talked about earlier than I did is that I didn't know that was the case until I had the right conversations with the right people.

Okay, so to clear the matter up in the future...if i cannot expect the "Senior Technical Artist" to know what their team is working on...who should i ask? And how are we supposed to know the exact ppl to ask for each specific answer?

But thanks for the response in any case.
MainDrain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2014-12-13 18:50:02 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
It was straight out from 4-4, someone had mentioned the new naga warp animation so I was seeing if the nado had one... then I saw that. I'll see what I can do to replicate it, though I can't see if it is any other minnie ships as the nado is the only one I have in Jita, well, I guess I have a rupture too.


Could it be a DX 9 issue ( as your fps box shows that's what you are using)
Liquid'Courage
The Hatchery
#155 - 2014-12-14 00:37:26 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
asteroidjas wrote:
The responses CCP have given from the start have been "well if you don't like the setting, don't use it"...while he was trying to tell them something looked wrong with the setting, not that he 'didn't like it', but that something looked wrong. Apparently, all while they were already internally aware to some extent and were 'talking about' working on it. Yet, it wasn't until the final response that they actually answered that the issue with the gallente hulls is something they are talking about working on.


The art/graphics team is made up of a bunch of people who are expert in multiple disciplines. The reason I couldn't answer that the issue was being talked about earlier than I did is that I didn't know that was the case until I had the right conversations with the right people.

It's easy to see CCP posters on the forums as members of a monolithic entity where everyone has a perfect idea of what's going on and is 100% on-message at all times. Instead, we're each bringing our own personal understanding to the forums when we post.

I try to be careful to say only what I know to be true, because I don't want to make promises or claims that I can't back up. So, don't expect me to say "oh yeah problem A with ship X will be fixed on day Y" unless I know for sure that's the case.

I'm glad you take that approach.

On the subject of dirt in space, I actually like the idea of seeing wear on the ships. Not so much dirt, as there really isn't dirt in space, but I would definitely think that space stations themselves are dirty to varying degrees (much more so for minmatar), maybe that could be replicated somehow? Time spent in station while constructed could add a different type of layering effect of the dirt that would accumulate on the ship depending on what type of station it's been housed in. I also support the idea of leaving battle scars on ships. At the same time, I'm sure there's people out there who would rather not have their ships look dirty/damaged, so maybe a way to turn this feature off? You could even turn it into a small isk sink for the game, by making people pay isk to remove dirt/damage like that (obviously something small, even if it's just like 100 isk).
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#156 - 2014-12-14 16:22:16 UTC
Okay now i havent read the whole thread (mainly because i am lazy) but i (and with me some other people) have wondered why all the pirate ships have gone from glorious looking killsticks to "i'm brown"...

Take the Mach for instance, that thing used to have that awesome almost black sheen that was AWESOME and now with the new rendering **** it's flat brown... Do you just want everyone flying amarr if they want to look win?
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#157 - 2014-12-14 22:10:59 UTC
Additionally, the new system allows for further improvement of our shaders. We could introduce a new material, apply dynamic dirt levels (older ships showing their age?),

What about dynamic damage done to the ship? Maybe after so many repairs it would begin to show signs of hull section being replaced with new hull sections that look newer than the undamaged sections.
Kaylin Drake
Profound Destiny
#158 - 2014-12-15 02:24:57 UTC
Not all of us like ugly.. if you introduce rust/dirt/damage over time to old ships and such can you please please make this optional. People who collect ships and that sort would be especially unhappy with this. Please just fix PBR first, too many ships are already ugly enough from that change...
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#159 - 2014-12-15 06:24:10 UTC
Kaylin Drake wrote:
Not all of us like ugly.. if you introduce rust/dirt/damage over time to old ships and such can you please please make this optional. People who collect ships and that sort would be especially unhappy with this. Please just fix PBR first, too many ships are already ugly enough from that change...

Could always give us the option to remove scars and clean the hull at the repairshop.
Bentakhar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2014-12-15 12:39:04 UTC
CPP did a really fantastic job so far with PBR but it is true that some ships seem unfinished:

I will talk about Duvolle or gallente navy ships for example (because its the ones i fly most) :

If you compare the jawdropping, gorgeous new Megathron (that thing is perfect!) with the Kronos for example , you will notice the Kronos is missing a lot of the details and depth the mega has.

Gallente ships in generals seem to have 4 shaders: the metallic grey, the chrome , the green and a dark metallic grey texture, duvolle ships and navy gallente ships only seem to have 2 different shaders.

It seems the Duvolle ships all suffer from this and there is a bit of inconsistency in materials aswell: the astarte's brown texture is very shiny compared to that of the kronos and nemesis which both look better.

On a side note, i'm a big defender of camo in space (because why not?) but the gallente navy green camo is contradictory with the blingy black chrome which makes the ships far from camouflaged ;) either ditch the camo or tune down the shine on gallente navy ships to make more sense. A carbon fiber look with flat olive green? That'd be gorgeous!

Creodron ships now look maybe too close to T1 ships. Maybe invert the green and grey shaders? :D

Another side note Aliastra edition ships have lost there bright orange stripe which is now dark red, and less 'colorfull gallente flavored' which is reminding me of the gorgeous old gallente shuttle ;) (btw the NES is still showing the old incursus model)

Congratz again CCP , PBR is really a giant leap forward! ArrowArrowArrow