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Rationalising the skill training & implants sytem

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Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#41 - 2014-12-12 22:38:40 UTC
The idea itself is good. i think a little adjustment and i can live with it.

1) no attribut imps, no faster train, nothing that let sp grow faster. All train at the same speed.
2) change the number for slots to boost something.
Only 3 slots available. one für leadership, one for shield/armor/navigation and one for weapons, nothing more

advantages: no more need for +5 imps, an empty clone is enough, imps are often the argumentation for: no i can't roam, got 5's in my head and my timer is active is then outdated, everybody can risk a cruiser sized ship then and have fun. no idiotic timers. the clone change was a step in the right direction. i hope for the next step.

kill all attribute imps!
+1
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#42 - 2014-12-12 22:53:56 UTC
This comes up every time with people saying 'risk adverse'.
The reality is a lot of Pardus players don't play 12 hours a day, every day of the week. So their income is limited in game, that is fair enough.
But that means that loosing 1 pod worth of learning implants, even if it's not +5's, is a large real time to replace those funds.

If Learning implants didn't exist they wouldn't be having to deal with large amounts of reduced training speed in response to a single podding, so while some might still find a reason not to PvP, others would start to. It's a continuum.
And learning implants do encourage people to remain docked as the benefit they provide is the same docked & un-docked. Will still be plenty of isk sunk into other implants that only provide benefit while un-docked.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-12-12 23:09:36 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This comes up every time with people saying 'risk adverse'.
The reality is a lot of Pardus players don't play 12 hours a day, every day of the week. So their income is limited in game, that is fair enough.
But that means that loosing 1 pod worth of learning implants, even if it's not +5's, is a large real time to replace those funds.

If Learning implants didn't exist they wouldn't be having to deal with large amounts of reduced training speed in response to a single podding, so while some might still find a reason not to PvP, others would start to. It's a continuum.
And learning implants do encourage people to remain docked as the benefit they provide is the same docked & un-docked. Will still be plenty of isk sunk into other implants that only provide benefit while un-docked.



I'm not a very good PVP player, TBH... That said, i do still kind of enjoy it, until my Pod gets targeted.
I typically roll into a jump clone with no imps, but most of the time I don't know when I'll be able to get back in game due to work and family.
This means that I can potentially be stuck in a non-imp clone for days or weeks at a time...

Kinda makes me not ever want to PVP.

I have no problem losing frigs, cruisers, and sometimes BCs because I typically bought them specifically for PVP.
And I also don't mind losing a non-imp clone.

But again, why would I potentially lose several weeks of increased training time for a couple of hours of PVP?

If that wasn't a problem, I would definitely get more involved in PVP, despite being a carebear that doesn't make a whole lot of isk....
About the only thing I need isk for anymore is more missiles for my Golem... Apart from that I can blow everything else on PVP ships to be destroyed and purchasing new clones.


Speaking of, I haven't had a chance to play with the new system... Do you still need to purchase clones in the event you die, or do you just automatically get a clone when you die?
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#44 - 2014-12-12 23:58:32 UTC
I'd have to say no.


Eve was better back in the day when there was learning skills, and you had to study an item to work out how to use it best (Coldgas Arc Jet Thrusters etc).

Hell, Eve was better last week when the clone grades were still here...

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
LuisWu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-12-13 00:59:18 UTC
Great idea. I Can't speak of the details like what slots should be used or how many sp/h should boosters give, but I don't think is important, devs should look after those things.

I would even go further and remove all basic fitting skills in order to let new players access to capable ships and fits sooner , but this would be a very good start.

F*** This Game
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-12-13 00:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
I agree with removing attributes in general. EVE is supposed to be open-ended so I don't think you should be at a loss for not knowing what skills you would be training 9 months after a remap. But having to reboost every few days sounds a little tedious. To be quite honest, I don't think it's necessary to have anything but a flat training rate, although this wouldn't go over well with the implant market initially.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-12-13 01:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Jur Tissant wrote:
I agree with removing attributes in general. EVE is supposed to be open-ended so I don't think you should be at a loss for not knowing what skills you would be training 9 months after a remap. But having to reboost every few days sounds a little tedious. To be quite honest, I don't think it's necessary to have anything but a flat training rate, although this wouldn't go over well with the implant market initially.



Implant market is all NPC supplied anyway, so it's the removal of an Isk faucet.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-12-13 02:20:11 UTC
I would prefer a system like Dust 514 has where you accumulate points and then can apply them anywhere. I'd also like to avoid anything that improves training speed as it's just something that rich players will use continuously and poor players won't be able to afford at all.

Keep is simple. You accumulate SP based on your paid time. No advantages to anyone based in ISK spent.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#49 - 2014-12-13 02:34:36 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Implant market is all NPC supplied anyway, so it's the removal of an Isk faucet.

Isk sink, not Faucet.
However it's not really the removal of an isk sink, as the implant market will still exist with all the other implants that have actual in game effects. If they instead spend the Isk on ships not on other implants that's also an isk sink now with industry build costs.
So... pretty much unless they hoard the isk it doesn't remove an isk sink. And if they hoard the isk it's pretty irrelevant regardless.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-12-13 02:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
I think CCP said it best as to why the removal of attribute implants makes sense in Eve.

Quote:
Death Matters...

Those are the changes coming in Rhea, but before I go, let me talk to you a bit more about death, and about what comes after Rhea.

EVE is a game built on connections. It is a network of NPCs, ships, structures and players, all interacting with each other in a single, unified space. These interactions are what drive the universe forward and provide meaning for players who inhabit New Eden. We want every choice you make as a player to impact the world around you. From the rookie ship mining Veldspar to calling targets in the largest Alliance battles, your actions in the game should have meaning and affect other players either directly or indirectly.

Death is one of the most meaningful things a player can experience, and can happen at any time. The consequences and meaning a player applies to the loss of their ship is very powerful, and the ways they can affect and deal with that loss are very real.

The same cannot be said for the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints. A choice which does not affect the EVE universe as a whole, other than to empty players accounts of ISK and discourage the same interactions we want to foster.

It is for these reasons we have set down the path of changing the death penalty, and ultimately how clones work, to bring these systems in line with the rest of the vision for EVE Online.


This was posted by CCP Terminus in regards to the cost of upgrading clones upon death.

I truly believe the same can be said about attribute implants, and attributes as a whole.

It's not a choice, it's an illusion of choice.
CCP has already made the stance of not wanting SP tied to your death in any other matter than t3 ships.

Therefore, having SP generation tied to implants is in this same boat.

It's an illusion of choice, because you either lose isk or you lose SP (not training at max potential is losing SP)

Just like they said with clones, the choice between losing isk and losing SP is not a real choice, but the illusion of choice.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2014-12-13 07:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Joe Risalo wrote:

It's an illusion of choice, because you either lose isk or you lose SP (not training at max potential is losing SP)

Just like they said with clones, the choice between losing isk and losing SP is not a real choice, but the illusion of choice.

How is that an illusion of choice?

With the clone upgrades you either paid a high price to keep your many SP or you didn't and risked losing them. You would really lose SP if you did not pay the ISK.

With the SP training, however, you do not lose SP when you use +3s and not +5s in their stead. The only thing that happens is that you gain SP faster when you spend more money. Please elaborate how gaining SP slower can be called "los[ing] SP"? Do I not have a chance to get these SP ever again if I do not use +5s? Do I lose SP because I had to wait 1 more day until I could fly the %insertrandomBC% properly? Have I lost SP because it took me an additional week and I had to use a %insertrandomfactionmodule% for a ship fitting to work to compensate for me being a beginner? How can I lose something that I simply gain slower?
Instead, I have a real choice between a faster training at a higher cost and thus elevated stress level if I decided to PVP in that luxury clone, and a slower training in my normal clone and therefore more relaxed atmosphere when I PVP. And to be blunt: I rather prefer a more relaxed atmosphere and feeling when I PVP and don't train with max speed, than having to constantly worry about my useless head when I do stuff.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated
#52 - 2014-12-13 09:42:01 UTC
I'm with Mags. Just remove any training modifiers entirely.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-12-13 10:46:55 UTC
There is no illusion of choice, there is risk vs reward in its purest form. Risk Isk gain extra SP. Note you never lose sp by using lower implants you just gain it faster with better implants.

The implant market is not entirely npc seeded either as i have made several myself. They should all e player made in my opinion.

The skill system works fine as it is. Changing it will remove risk, choices and consequences. It wouls also be the first step onto theslippery slope of making every ship available to players inside of x months
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#54 - 2014-12-13 11:03:51 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
There is no illusion of choice, there is risk vs reward in its purest form. Risk Isk gain extra SP. Note you never lose sp by using lower implants you just gain it faster with better implants.

The implant market is not entirely npc seeded either as i have made several myself. They should all e player made in my opinion.

The skill system works fine as it is. Changing it will remove risk, choices and consequences. It wouls also be the first step onto theslippery slope of making every ship available to players inside of x months

The problem is, That's Pay to win. Since you can get isk with real money, and SP = winning basically since SP = pure time. No way to accelerate it otherwise.

Also it's not risk vs reward. Because you get the reward WHILE DOCKED.
So it's actually inverse risk vs reward as you get rewarded fully by staying docked and not PvPing while using +5's as you can't lose them and have slower training.

Ascendancy implants are also such a small portion of the market they can be discounted when talking about the Market being NPC seeded or not. Yes, it's not a 'literal' 100% but it's close enough for functional purposes as to what sinks are involved it can be treated as such.

It is also not a slippery slope. It is about removing Sp gain from being purchasable with isk, and a perceived barrier for some people. (We can argue all day on if it is a real barrier or not, but the fact that SP Implants are a perceived barrier by a lot of people can't be)
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-12-13 11:12:36 UTC
i thik the system is fair the way it is now the only change that might be considered is maybe having a remap every 6 mths instead of 1 year the rest of the mechanics are sound
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#56 - 2014-12-13 11:55:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
There is no illusion of choice, there is risk vs reward in its purest form. Risk Isk gain extra SP. Note you never lose sp by using lower implants you just gain it faster with better implants.

The implant market is not entirely npc seeded either as i have made several myself. They should all e player made in my opinion.

The skill system works fine as it is. Changing it will remove risk, choices and consequences. It wouls also be the first step onto theslippery slope of making every ship available to players inside of x months

The problem is, That's Pay to win. Since you can get isk with real money, and SP = winning basically since SP = pure time. No way to accelerate it otherwise.

Also it's not risk vs reward. Because you get the reward WHILE DOCKED.
So it's actually inverse risk vs reward as you get rewarded fully by staying docked and not PvPing while using +5's as you can't lose them and have slower training.

Ascendancy implants are also such a small portion of the market they can be discounted when talking about the Market being NPC seeded or not. Yes, it's not a 'literal' 100% but it's close enough for functional purposes as to what sinks are involved it can be treated as such.

It is also not a slippery slope. It is about removing Sp gain from being purchasable with isk, and a perceived barrier for some people. (We can argue all day on if it is a real barrier or not, but the fact that SP Implants are a perceived barrier by a lot of people can't be)


SP has literally nothing to do with winning in EVE, it means much less than in most games. Winning in EVE is achieved by teamwork and player skills. Misconceptions surrounding SP should be addressed in NPE, not by limiting choices and variety.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-12-13 12:33:21 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
There is no illusion of choice, there is risk vs reward in its purest form. Risk Isk gain extra SP. Note you never lose sp by using lower implants you just gain it faster with better implants.

The implant market is not entirely npc seeded either as i have made several myself. They should all e player made in my opinion.

The skill system works fine as it is. Changing it will remove risk, choices and consequences. It wouls also be the first step onto theslippery slope of making every ship available to players inside of x months

The problem is, That's Pay to win. Since you can get isk with real money, and SP = winning basically since SP = pure time. No way to accelerate it otherwise.

Also it's not risk vs reward. Because you get the reward WHILE DOCKED.
So it's actually inverse risk vs reward as you get rewarded fully by staying docked and not PvPing while using +5's as you can't lose them and have slower training.

Ascendancy implants are also such a small portion of the market they can be discounted when talking about the Market being NPC seeded or not. Yes, it's not a 'literal' 100% but it's close enough for functional purposes as to what sinks are involved it can be treated as such.

It is also not a slippery slope. It is about removing Sp gain from being purchasable with isk, and a perceived barrier for some people. (We can argue all day on if it is a real barrier or not, but the fact that SP Implants are a perceived barrier by a lot of people can't be)


SP has literally nothing to do with winning in EVE, it means much less than in most games. Winning in EVE is achieved by teamwork and player skills. Misconceptions surrounding SP should be addressed in NPE, not by limiting choices and variety.



Yes, because low SP gets you recruited to new corps all the time......
And everyone love a player who can't even fit a t1 frigate without running out of PG/CPU.

The skills you have trained has everything to do with "winning" in Eve, as "winning" is based on personal goals you set.
Those goals typically require SP, so SP has literally EVERYTHING to do with winning.

Take your trollery elsewhere.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-12-13 12:45:13 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

It's an illusion of choice, because you either lose isk or you lose SP (not training at max potential is losing SP)

Just like they said with clones, the choice between losing isk and losing SP is not a real choice, but the illusion of choice.

How is that an illusion of choice?

With the clone upgrades you either paid a high price to keep your many SP or you didn't and risked losing them. You would really lose SP if you did not pay the ISK.

With the SP training, however, you do not lose SP when you use +3s and not +5s in their stead. The only thing that happens is that you gain SP faster when you spend more money. Please elaborate how gaining SP slower can be called "los[ing] SP"? Do I not have a chance to get these SP ever again if I do not use +5s? Do I lose SP because I had to wait 1 more day until I could fly the %insertrandomBC% properly? Have I lost SP because it took me an additional week and I had to use a %insertrandomfactionmodule% for a ship fitting to work to compensate for me being a beginner? How can I lose something that I simply gain slower?
Instead, I have a real choice between a faster training at a higher cost and thus elevated stress level if I decided to PVP in that luxury clone, and a slower training in my normal clone and therefore more relaxed atmosphere when I PVP. And to be blunt: I rather prefer a more relaxed atmosphere and feeling when I PVP and don't train with max speed, than having to constantly worry about my useless head when I do stuff.


If i'm wearing +5 and you're wearing nothing, i'll gain SP much faster that you.
If we both decided to train every skill in the game, I would complete training is SIGNIFICANTLY less time than you would.

You have paid a subscription fee for this game. So, me training at max potential to do what I enjoy, safely in high sec, while you training at lower potential in order to do what you enjoy and lose less isk at the same time is what many people would deem as an "unfair" advantage supported by game mechanics.

If we both started a new account, and say we were focused on training for a maxed out super carrier, I would be in that ship in a significantly less amount of time.
While you are not directly "losing" SP by going backwards, you are losing SP in the sense that you are gaining less per month.

Look at the clones, again, as an example.
I'm a carebear and rarely lose a pod. You're a PVP'er and lose pods all the time.
I take no risks in losing isk or SP, cause my pod is rarely in danger.

You shouldn't have to sacrifice SP for the sake of doing what you enjoy in game, in either case.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#59 - 2014-12-13 13:36:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Waltaratzor wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
People don't 'need' to train faster, it's a nice to have.


It does however reward people for staying in high sec.

How so? You can still get podded easily in High sec. And you do not need to sit in a +5 in order to train with optimal speed. A +3 head is more than sufficient to train skills fast and without prohibitive cost, and they don't matter much when you get podded in High/Low/Null sec.

Whoever puts +5s in their head and then complains about how s/he can't PVP, is just complaining about their own incapability of playing and judging things correctly. You can PVP everywhere just as easily with +5s in your head as with +3s or no implants.


I'd like to see the number of times a character is podded per year in highsec vs lowsec and nullsec.

If you're PVPing with +5s and you're in nullsec, you're doing it wrong. Or you have so much money that you just can't be bothered to care anymore, but those people are a very slim minority.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#60 - 2014-12-13 13:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Better solution: No jump clone cooldown timer IF you jump to a clone in the same station.

In a +5 learning implants clone? No problem, jump into an empty one for the fight, and when you die, jump right back to the +5s.
This would be nice if we could also keep more than one clone in a station at a time.



If we really want to change skill training though, get rid of attributes entirely. They're a leftover, there are enough skills to train to maintain complexity even without attributes.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.