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250mm Railguns. Ishtars. Heavy Missiles First post
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Phaade

LowKey Ops

Shadow Cartel

Likes received: 390

#141 - 2014-12-12 17:19:11 UTC

Anhenka wrote:

Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor?

Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd.

Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread.

Because, you know, it's impossible to deploy another drone.

That argument is tired. Drones have been killable forever, yet the Ishtar is far and away the best and most widely used HAC.

CLEARLY your argument doesn't hold up to balance. I don't understand why this is difficult for you to see. Seriously.

+1 to appropriate drone bonuses. Cruisers get medium, BS get large, Frigs get small. It's really not that hard.

Anhenka

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 1,697

#142 - 2014-12-12 17:24:32 UTC | Edited by: Anhenka

Phaade wrote:

Anhenka wrote:

It was a largely joke post at the time, since the threads were filled with "gut the Ishtar and let irrelevance sort it out" suggestions like "only let Ishtars deploy medium drones" "remove the drone bonuses and give it an armor tank" "Remove enough of the drone bay that it can't deploy an additional wave of drones".

The ones that were not were choosing to compare it to gun ships and cut back all the stats until they matced the other gun HAC's, so I was poking fun at the observation that if you want to cut it back to exact gun HAC stats, then it should be able to mount its weapon systems in a non vulnerable state, like gun HAC's.

I figured I may as well toss in my own silly, bullshit suggestion to what seemed to be an obvious contest for worst balancing ideas.

Many people here seems to be trying to "Balance" the Ishtar by turning it into a ship that is so bad, so useless that it has no application anywhere.

Viribus

Wilderness

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Likes received: 355

#143 - 2014-12-16 03:17:38 UTC | Edited by: Viribus

Anhenka wrote:

The ones that were not were choosing to compare it to gun ships and cut back all the stats until they matced the other gun HAC's, so I was poking fun at the observation that if you want to cut it back to exact gun HAC stats, then it should be able to mount its weapon systems in a non vulnerable state, like gun HAC's.

and yet you consistently ignore that drones have actual advantages over guns as a weapon system, namely independence from fitting restrictions (which make things like the no-fitting-mods 700 dps 100mn ishtar possible) and invulnerability to EWAR

Sort of like how the dominix does a fair bit less DPS than comparable battleships yet still remains popular. Gee what a mystery???

I almost cannot believe you're seriously still arguing that, because you can kill an ishtar's drones (with 70k of damage), it makes it perfectly acceptable for the ishtar to have like 50% more damage at 70km than other HACs

watch me be a scurb and get owned

hungrymanbreakfast

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 35

#144 - 2014-12-19 20:04:56 UTC | Edited by: hungrymanbreakfast

Rino007 wrote:

hungrymanbreakfast wrote:

[quote=J A Aloysiusz][quote=scorchlikeshiswhiskey]

Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars.

The problem with sentris is specifically the Ishtar. It is capable of battleship level dps without the drawbacks of being a battleship. If it had the drawbacks of being a battleship, it wouldn't be as overpowering because it could be countered. Simply decrease the number of sentries it can use to 4 and it wouldn't be as overpowering. That would trim it's dps down by 20%

Truth be told I was comparing a Dominix 3 slot armor tank vs an Ishtar with a 3 slot shield tank a few days ago. The Ishtar would get a stronger tank (less buffer) than the dominix, with the same dps with sentries, and more with heavy drones, the only thing that the Ishtar might not beat the Dominix with is the effective range of the drones. Something doesn't seem right there in my opinion. In almost forms of context the Ishtar is superior to the Dominix and that is a problem rooted in the fact it has battleship level dps due to that 5th sentry. The Dominix can microjump away and then make the Ishtar go boom with enough of a fit, but at close range hands down the Ishtar wins (doing more drone dps via heavy drones than the Dominix). With 4 Warden 2's in this fit it can have 493 Drone dps. Granted it has 0 gun dps, but truth be told it doesn't need gun dps because it's close range dps is 599. And remember that is with 4 sentry drones, not the 5 that it is capable now (748 close, 616 far range) Sounds way more desirable than a Dominix to me considering its signature.

The tracking needs a nerf as frigates can be alpha'd when mwd'ing at full transversal under 30k. Not many things can hit those, but sentries can. The dps needs a nerf since it has the same issue the old HM missiles had. DPS is always applied, so the travel time of the higher damage alternative is beaten. And since the tracking and range is pretty good they work at all ranges. If you aren't tracking with the drones just fight them a little further away from the drones. Carriers aren't using fighters anymore since the sentries are cheaper and are always applying instant ~1000 dps. You only see fighters in small gang engagements or PVE. You never see heavy drones in PVP or PVE anymore, which is kinda bad since they are supposed to be the high damage drone.
The fact that the ishtar gets buffs to the sentry drones is just adding insult to injury. It also needs a bit of a nerf, but I would start with sentry drones and then see how they fare.

Adrie Atticus

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 931

#145 - 2014-12-19 22:06:16 UTC

Khan Wrenth wrote:

Capqu wrote:

Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise.

I see this suggested often, and I agree with it, but I think it's a band-aid solution that doesn't solve a deeper problem. The problem isn't so much the Ishtar, but in sentry drones themselves. Fix sentry drones and people will still use and adore the Ishtar, and it won't need any sort of nerf.

It's a double-whammy because Ishtars are the only sentry platform which is 100% safe from bombing runs at all times of the day, unless the bombing fleet wants to sacrifice 1 tackle ship per Ishtar just to kill them.

Esmanpir

Raccoon's with LightSabers

Likes received: 43

#146 - 2014-12-19 22:16:28 UTC

Viribus wrote:

Harvey James wrote:

corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get

corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game

nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus

dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good

prophecy's a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers

Isn't a Corax a little better against frigs though?

Capqu

Half Empty

xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku

Likes received: 1,336

#147 - 2014-12-20 10:13:27 UTC

Esmanpir wrote:

Viribus wrote:

Harvey James wrote:

corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get

Isn't a Corax a little better against frigs though?

in practise no, because it has worse fitting and terrible speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg

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