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Is the new "bullet time" / time diliation feature going to completely KILL EvE?

First post
Author
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#121 - 2011-09-13 10:05:56 UTC
Kristina Vanszar wrote:
My main concern is as follows:

if there is a big fight going on,a nd everything in that system is beeing slowed down, that means a fight might take double the time then it would normally.

that means that one f the sides has double the time to bring in reinforcments... or am i wrong with that?

What i imagine, is goons slowing down that system until they are able to bring 800 perfectly fitted and organized guys into the battle.

correct me if i am wrong please.


Actually from what i understand you are 100 % correct. [might be wrong]



Smile
Kristina Vanszar
MONOCLEGEDDON
#122 - 2011-09-13 10:43:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kristina Vanszar wrote:
My main concern is as follows:

if there is a big fight going on,a nd everything in that system is beeing slowed down, that means a fight might take double the time then it would normally.

that means that one f the sides has double the time to bring in reinforcments... or am i wrong with that?

What i imagine, is goons slowing down that system until they are able to bring 800 perfectly fitted and organized guys into the battle.

correct me if i am wrong please.


Good news! You are wrong.

TiDi won't make it any easier to execute a strategy like that than current lag conditions do now. I don't see why people have trouble recognising this simple fact. If anything, the battle will procede more quickly and give "goons" less time to assemble this hypothetical "perfectly fitted and organised" fleet (I have never before heard anyone accuse goons of bringing "perfectly fitted and organised" fleets.

Additionally, CCP really have done good work on fighting the lag monster in the last year or so. 800 guys won't cut it any more if you want to lag-bomb a system; more like 1800. There are limits to the numbers that even goons can muster, especially as they're not even the largest alliance, or in the largest coalition.

Finally, TiDi is nothing to do with goons. The idea was conceived and work began on it well before the current CSM was formed. It isn't a goon conspiracy, and people's concerns about it seem to be mainly based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what it will actually do and how lag works now.



Sorry i think you've understood me wrong,

goons was just an example, insert your Favorite alliance [HERE]

What i am talking about is not the fight itself, it's the comming back of poped pilots in new ships, the time it will take support fleets to arrive,

when a battle is streched, let's say only 10 minutes longer then they would now, that are 10 minutes more friendly fleets have to get they're arses into the battleground.

I'm not talking about strategies, and fights itself, i'm talking about the background, supports arriving e.t.c.

It'll be like a Baddon fleet aligning 15 % faster and warping 15 $ faster until they land in the effected system / node.
Fawcks
Doomheim
#123 - 2011-09-13 10:46:54 UTC
Instead of making it so that no one has lag, now everyone is going to have it?

I'm confused. :(
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#124 - 2011-09-13 11:31:43 UTC
I think the key thing you're missing Ms. Vanszar is that fights are already taking long than they would under ideal server situations. Modules already take longer to cycle than they should under heavy load, in addition to any problems with black screening and the like preventing pilots from participating. It's already possible for a force to slow down a fight in order to call in more reinforcements.

That said, I keep a fairly tight eye on what the load in fleet fights is. If I see something pop up that's obviously trying to deny the field, I'll have some work to do to correct that.

It's likely that guns in particular will be a bit slower after TiDi than before, as manual cycling won't give any advantage like it does now - they'll be effected by server overloading exactly the same as any other module now instead of having preferential treatment. Ultimately that's what this is all about - preserving the game mechanics even if the server becomes overloaded.

Maybe keeping game mechanics intact will cause fights to take longer. Maybe they'll be faster instead. There's good arguments either way and I'm quite excited to see which way it goes once the feature is active.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#125 - 2011-09-13 11:33:41 UTC
Fawcks wrote:
Instead of making it so that no one has lag, now everyone is going to have it?

I'm confused. :(


Yessir, you very much are confused Big smile

We're taking a break from increasing capacity to make going over capacity considerably less painful, as it's functionally impossible for us to guarantee never going over capacity.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#126 - 2011-09-13 11:35:02 UTC
Kristina Vanszar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Kristina Vanszar wrote:
My main concern is as follows:

if there is a big fight going on,a nd everything in that system is beeing slowed down, that means a fight might take double the time then it would normally.

that means that one f the sides has double the time to bring in reinforcments... or am i wrong with that?

What i imagine, is goons slowing down that system until they are able to bring 800 perfectly fitted and organized guys into the battle.

correct me if i am wrong please.


Good news! You are wrong.

TiDi won't make it any easier to execute a strategy like that than current lag conditions do now. I don't see why people have trouble recognising this simple fact. If anything, the battle will procede more quickly and give "goons" less time to assemble this hypothetical "perfectly fitted and organised" fleet (I have never before heard anyone accuse goons of bringing "perfectly fitted and organised" fleets.

Additionally, CCP really have done good work on fighting the lag monster in the last year or so. 800 guys won't cut it any more if you want to lag-bomb a system; more like 1800. There are limits to the numbers that even goons can muster, especially as they're not even the largest alliance, or in the largest coalition.

Finally, TiDi is nothing to do with goons. The idea was conceived and work began on it well before the current CSM was formed. It isn't a goon conspiracy, and people's concerns about it seem to be mainly based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what it will actually do and how lag works now.



Sorry i think you've understood me wrong,

goons was just an example, insert your Favorite alliance [HERE]

What i am talking about is not the fight itself, it's the comming back of poped pilots in new ships, the time it will take support fleets to arrive,

when a battle is streched, let's say only 10 minutes longer then they would now, that are 10 minutes more friendly fleets have to get they're arses into the battleground.

I'm not talking about strategies, and fights itself, i'm talking about the background, supports arriving e.t.c.

It'll be like a Baddon fleet aligning 15 % faster and warping 15 $ faster until they land in the effected system / node.


Again, how is this any different from what we might see with normally lagged out fights?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#127 - 2011-09-13 11:42:38 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
For a reduction of 50% to be warranted, the fight needs to be double the capacity of a reinforced node. More importantly, it would speed up as the fight continued.


Why do we have lag? It's because people keep coming to the fight until it lags.

What happens when it doesn't lag anymore but just slows down? Will more people join in because massive fleet fights now work and node death won't happen anymore? Will fewer people join in because massive fleet fights work and they can't rely on lag to "win"?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#128 - 2011-09-13 11:53:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
For a reduction of 50% to be warranted, the fight needs to be double the capacity of a reinforced node. More importantly, it would speed up as the fight continued.


Why do we have lag? It's because people keep coming to the fight until it lags.

What happens when it doesn't lag anymore but just slows down? Will more people join in because massive fleet fights now work and node death won't happen anymore? Will fewer people join in because massive fleet fights work and they can't rely on lag to "win"?


(1) We actually get a fight, instead of a blackscreen at worst and a bizarro-world slideshow at best
(2) Yes
(3) Yes

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2011-09-13 12:00:35 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
......

Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~


Awesome!

How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.

Try and get more people? An offer of ISK on TQ (about what the average player could have earned in an hour) might do that.

Or just get a slow server so the normal showing of 350 will do it?

Or add some thin clients?

Or....?

Also: The term Time dilation comes from Relativity, and there its values is represented by the Greek letter Gamma. It starts at 1.0 and drops as you get close to light speed. CCP Veritas: maybe you should put the value of gamma on the screen somewhere. Have it in percent, 100% normally, and dropping as the server loads up. Going forward, tracking gamma as a function of fight size may be a good metric for the war on lag.



to get more ppl on sisi for mass test offer a freebie ship (Tornado) in tq to all those that partipated on sisi mass test. i bet you'd find sisi overloaded for that test.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#130 - 2011-09-13 12:23:53 UTC


Great, so CCP's solution to the lag problem that a few people get is to, LAG EVERYBODY.

Smooth.

I thought we already had the Final Solution to the lag problem, it was called Incarna/NEX.


CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#131 - 2011-09-13 12:40:48 UTC
Miilla wrote:
Great, so CCP's solution to the lag problem that a few people get is to, LAG EVERYBODY.


I have no idea where you're getting this idea.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
#132 - 2011-09-13 12:55:57 UTC
Miilla wrote:


Great, so CCP's solution to the lag problem that a few people get is to, LAG EVERYBODY.

Smooth.

I thought we already had the Final Solution to the lag problem, it was called Incarna/NEX.


We're having a relatively constructive discussion here. Please go away forever.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2011-09-13 14:07:31 UTC
I'll be honest and confess my ignorance to this topic and haven't been following it much either, but would still like to add one comment.

As far I think this and try to keep it as simply as possible, there seems to be only one thing that can go wrong.

Lets pretend that there is fleet fight in system X. That system goes to "time diliation". People involved in the fight or some 3rd party has huge fleet in some (not necessarily) nearby system. However because events in system X are slowed down, there would be plenty of more time to bring additional stuff to combat than there was before.

I don't know is this time diliation going to be system wide, grid wide or otherwise area limited. However as far I see, it would be vital to prevent more troops entering that area without "delay timer", which would start when time diliation kicks in and compensate the time difference people "inside the bubble" are experiencing.

There could be also warning prompt before someone or some fleet was about to enter such bubble, telling how long the delay would be and asking are you sure you want to enter the "que".

If such delay won't be implemented and "time diliation" would be anything over 1 minute, there will be unfair advantage already.

Anyways I'm not expert on the topic - just few thoughts.

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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#134 - 2011-09-13 14:10:47 UTC

So why did you remove my post asking about why the patch was over 100mb and what happened to the Incarna performance patch that was removed?


CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#135 - 2011-09-13 14:16:07 UTC
Miilla wrote:
So why did you remove my post asking about why the patch was over 100mb and what happened to the Incarna performance patch that was removed?


It had absolutely nothing to do with this thread?

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#136 - 2011-09-13 14:16:26 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
For a reduction of 50% to be warranted, the fight needs to be double the capacity of a reinforced node. More importantly, it would speed up as the fight continued.


Why do we have lag? It's because people keep coming to the fight until it lags.

What happens when it doesn't lag anymore but just slows down? Will more people join in because massive fleet fights now work and node death won't happen anymore? Will fewer people join in because massive fleet fights work and they can't rely on lag to "win"?

See, the point is, that at the moment the lag benefits the DEFENDER to an exorbitant degree. Can't defend [system name]? No worries! Just crash the node whenever the enemy come along and you hold the system by default.

If the server is up and running, albeit with everything taking longer, then you have PROPER game mechanics for the fight at work, instead.

As for the argument that is gives more time for reinforcements? Sorry, but no. Sov warfare is such that everyone knows the exact time and place ahead of time; this is plenty of time to batphone, and an extra 10minutes won't help.

If you've ever been in a high lag situation, you'll know how badly it affects what you can and can't do. Most notably, when fighters / FBs / drones work fine and apply damage ... but guns don't work.

If you want to look at all the issues this fixes, look at any battle report from last year and read the player comments.

Situation a:
Try to undock - blackscreen - POD

Situation b:
Undock - Fight slightly slower than normal - fight normal speed -end

Who in all honesty wants situation a to remain the norm?
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#137 - 2011-09-13 14:21:25 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Stuff about a delay on jump-in


This is commonly brought up, but inducing a delay on jump in so the "times line up" is not something we're doing. It does make reinforcing mid-fight more powerful than it would be if the fight were lagless, but compared to today's situation it's no worse.

If we were to do such a delay, it'd create a minor nightmare in the details. Are ships stuck in the delay for the duration? Are they in some kind of "limbo" invulnerable state the entire time? What if their eventual jump in time would be after downtime? It gets pretty bonkers.

I totally understand that it feels weird to have differences in time advancement not accounted for in some way, but the oddness of that is less odd than actually accounting for it.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#138 - 2011-09-13 14:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
Can time dilation be abused? What if large fleets jump in and out or log on and off, what if the large fleet does lots of actions?

Is the dilation localised to the grid? or System wide?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#139 - 2011-09-13 14:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
CCP Veritas wrote:
That said, I keep a fairly tight eye on what the load in fleet fights is. If I see something pop up that's obviously trying to deny the field, I'll have some work to do to correct that.

I would kill for certain parts of your job Lol

And as far as one side bringing reinforcements to the fight, and reshipping to keep the fight going, why is that a bad thing? If one side can, why can't the other?

More than that, if I can fit all 3000 allied combat pilots in one system to slowly beat your 1k man fleet, why can't your other 500 go start reinforcing out POSes, and SBUing our systems?

Hey, with the 'Burning the fields' idea they are talking about for null, this would be a great way to bog down a superior force so your roams could burn said fields freely... Pirate

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#140 - 2011-09-13 14:28:59 UTC
Miilla wrote:
Can time dilation be abused? What if large fleets jump in and out or log on and off, what if the large fleet does lots of actions?

Is the dilation localised to the grid? or System wide?


Its blade wide. Now the question is is the system reinforced or not? ie running on a dedicated cpu.

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See you around the universe.