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DPS/size/price ratio is ****** up... should it be acknowledged?

First post
Author
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-12-16 18:40:31 UTC
mkint wrote:
Andski wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
bonoMonsterK wrote:
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)



if you get a ceptor pilot into web range that pilot is a complete idiot O,o


Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

I forget the numbers, but aren't there boats that can get 40km webs? Like a boosted bhaalgorn or something? And ceptor pilot's tackle range = 24km?

OP's obviously never played EVE though. Some miner who's brain is scrambled from staring at rocks all day. It's so very very time for this thread to die.


Huginns can web out to 82km or so with a fed navy web, Recon V and Claymore bonuses.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

mkint
#42 - 2011-12-16 18:42:27 UTC
Xolve wrote:
mkint wrote:
Andski wrote:
Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

I forget the numbers, but aren't there boats that can get 40km webs? Like a boosted bhaalgorn or something? And ceptor pilot's tackle range = 24km?


Pretty sure Andski already answered this question. Interceptors can be hit by battleships if the MWD in at the wrong angle (even with Interceptor V). Save the argument for people that understand the mechanics and have flown under these conditions.

Just because your in a Frigate doesn't mean your impervious to large guns, a well skilled player will exploit the simplest mistake you make and take down your ship.

I've lost a ceptor or two to battleships... (usually to catching a volley on a too-aggressive approach or an adjustment in orbit). I am aware of the limitations. :P I was actually being supportive and pointing out the the huggin isn't the only (or necessarily even the best) thing for catching ceptors.

Also, shouldn't this thread be in the ships&modules forum where it can die quietly?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#43 - 2011-12-16 19:47:51 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:

and yes i know 33 times more price dont means i get 33 more perfomance, but it would be nice if i get at least 3 times more perfomance.

HOWEVER! in weapons.

double size DO MEANS double damage.(asuming same speed for kinetic or double wattage for lasers)


This is eve.... a game of DIMINISHING RETURNS.....

Training takes exponentially longer to get that linear boost in performance....

Since your so infatuated with prices.....

Compare Meta 0 - Meta 14 items..... Typically, you pay 1000's of % more for a very small percentage increase in performance. Especially with comparing Meta 0-5 to faction and officer mods.

Isk is NOT how you measure the increase in value....

Also, in EvE... bigger does not mean better. I've solo'd Ravens in a Rifter, and I think that's a pretty awesome aspect to eve... that as you increase your damage and tank, you gain weaknesses too!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#44 - 2011-12-16 20:00:08 UTC
Andski wrote:
mkint wrote:
Andski wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
bonoMonsterK wrote:
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)



if you get a ceptor pilot into web range that pilot is a complete idiot O,o


Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

I forget the numbers, but aren't there boats that can get 40km webs? Like a boosted bhaalgorn or something? And ceptor pilot's tackle range = 24km?

OP's obviously never played EVE though. Some miner who's brain is scrambled from staring at rocks all day. It's so very very time for this thread to die.


Huginns can web out to 82km or so with a fed navy web, Recon V and Claymore bonuses.


And a solo hugin/rapier will die horribly to a frigate that orbits under its guns, even when they have dual webs!

Rapier VS Sentinel + KM Whore
Rapier VS Taranis
Ranya Delnas
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-12-16 20:04:51 UTC
Anything in eve can beat anything else in eve if sufficient stupidity is involved
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-12-16 20:59:45 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And a solo hugin/rapier will die horribly to a frigate that orbits under its guns, even when they have dual webs!

Rapier VS Sentinel + KM *****
Rapier VS Taranis


if you fly a huginn solo you deserve to die

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-12-16 21:03:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And a solo hugin/rapier will die horribly to a frigate that orbits under its guns, even when they have dual webs!

Rapier VS Sentinel + KM *****
Rapier VS Taranis


if you fly a huginn solo you deserve to die


I've actually seen a 220m Active Shield Tanking Huginn with Navy Webs and a RF TP annihilate frigs.. but it was in Empire.. taking full benefit of HG Crystals and a Blue Pill
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-12-16 21:07:53 UTC
This is the worst thread.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2011-12-16 21:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ager Agemo wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Ignoring tank, damage application and deployability makes your thread a complete fail

i did want to add tanking ability but on that field the problem is just as bad, while deploy ability you know small ships will excel at movement while big ships suck at it.

specially now on times of hot dropping everywhere.

also all this ships are using blasters so their damage aplication is the same, or actually it makes the problem worse, the destroyers will be able to apply their damage at EVERYTHING, while the battleship is solely limited to other ships of its class or battlecruisers if lucky.


My mega shoots down fighters. You have just shown how little you know.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-12-16 21:39:38 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:

this is not about if the ships can hit or not the smaller ships, jesus -.-


Whats the point of the thread then?

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#51 - 2011-12-16 22:28:29 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Everyone chill the **** out, I got this.


We're removing all ships, except one, which shall now be known as ''the ship''

You choose how much isk you want to pay for it.

It has no modules.

It's speed, tank and DPS are set as a linear function of the amount of ISK you dropped on it.
1000000 isk? 100 dps.
1000000000 isk? 100 000 dps.

Problem solved.


Um, what? I fail to see how this applies to the thread. But then again, I've been told that I just fail. Maybe those people are correct.

@ OP: Even though I agree with you to some extent, there is one little thing that I would like to bring to the discussion. As it stands, a BS can instapop frigs, even with low DPS long range weaponry fitted. So more DPS wouldn't really balance things out as far as that goes.

Besides, my biggest beef with BS' is that they are practically useless for smaller gangs or roaming gangs. They're supposed to be the backbone of fleets, but if you try to bring one to a roaming fleet of BC's and HAC's, you will be told to either bring something else or stay home.

Sure, BS' have a lot of uses, but I still feel they could use some more "utility". Don't get me wrong, a ship like the Domi is an all time favourite for multirole fittings. I think pretty much every FC would welcome a neut Domi in their gang, but that's not the point. Their align speed is so terrible that they can forget getting past even the most basic gate camp, and if you wanted to use another BS than the Domi, your options are rather limited as far as utility goes.

IMO raising the DPS of the bigger classes and increasing the base HP of all ship classes would be a good start, but my biggest beef is the fact that a BC costs about 50% of a BS and has about 85% of the performance as far as tank/DPS goes, AND it has better align time, better speed, smaller signature raduis. BC's are OP.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-12-16 22:32:18 UTC
Feligast wrote:
This is the worst thread.

Baden Luskan
Freeworlds Collective
#53 - 2011-12-16 22:41:34 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
basically there is a big, huge gap of DPS and sizes between sub and capital ships. and TOO small gap among sub capital ships.

battleships are on the range of the 600 to 1600 dps, while a dreadnought DPS starts at staggering 13000 on siegue mode.
i feel the boundary that separates ship damage roles is becoming too diffuse, since they have way too similar stats:

Highest dps per class: (mostly blasters...) ____________ _____________DPS/ price Ratio with previous class
frigate _____________255 ( incursus __________50k
Assault ships _______352 (Enyo _____________11 mil _____________ 1.5/220
faction frigate _______423 (daredevil __________69 mil _____________ 1.5/6
destroyer __________583 (Catalyst ___________100k _____________1.2/0.0014
Cruiser ___________745 (thorax _____________3 mill _____________1.5/30
Heavy assault ______892 (Deimos ___________100 mill ___________ 1.1/33
Faction cruiser _____980 (vigilant _____________280 mil ___________1.2/3
Battlecruiser _______980 (brutix _____________17 mill _____________ 1/0.06
tier 3 BC __________1351 (talos ____________55 mill _____________ 1.3/3
Command ship ____1186 (Astarte ___________189 mill _____________0.8/3
Battleship ________1506 (Hyperion __________139 mill ____________ 1.4/0.6
Faction battleship___1694 (vindicator _________1bill _______________ 1.1/9
Marauder _________1411 (Kronos ___________750 mill _____________ 0.8/0.7
Moros ______ _____13233 (moros __________1.8 bill _______________10/2

at least on blaster ships, the dps gap can be noticed, on the other ships, their DPSs in general are sooo close to each other, all the ships are basically the same thing dps wise.

why big ships got such a ******* ineffective damage ratio compared to their price? and why size to damage ratio is so Small? twice the size, but 15% more damage ?

it would be nice if maybe ships dps ranges were scaled better compared to their price and size.

lets put this way, 3 destroyers, will do 1500 dps, for 300k isk, and having hull size of 65 meters.
this makes them: 1400 times more price effective than battleships, able to kill anything smaller or bigger, and being 15 times smaller.


Signature radius totally makes this information pointless. It is also why a new player can have an impact in this game when fighting more veteran players. the Moros may do 13233 dps, but I wanna see it put all that damage on a sub-capital.

DPS is great on paper, but applying it in Eve is a totally different matter.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2011-12-16 22:50:50 UTC
Also player numbers
Anyone can buy 200 rifters, but not everyone can find 200 friends to fly them

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Gaia Ma'chello
Photosynth
#55 - 2011-12-16 22:59:07 UTC
Dont know if anyone has said this, did not read the entire thread. 30 destroyers may be the same dps as 10 battleships, but 10 players cannot bring 30 destroyers to the field. They can bring 10 battleships.

In many things in eve there is a very strong "diminishing returns" trend. Skill training (5 times longer per level), named module price, and going to bigger ships. Even mining, something like 5 Bantams can mine about as much as a Hulk.

All of this is due to one very scare resource: A player at the keyboard.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-12-16 23:01:13 UTC
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:
Dont know if anyone has said this, did not read the entire thread. 30 destroyers may be the same dps as 10 battleships, but 10 players cannot bring 30 destroyers to the field. They can bring 10 battleships.


I just said that you horrible person

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Hark Hanam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-12-16 23:39:41 UTC
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:
Dont know if anyone has said this, did not read the entire thread. 30 destroyers may be the same dps as 10 battleships, but 10 players cannot bring 30 destroyers to the field. They can bring 10 battleships.

In many things in eve there is a very strong "diminishing returns" trend. Skill training (5 times longer per level), named module price, and going to bigger ships. Even mining, something like 5 Bantams can mine about as much as a Hulk.

All of this is due to one very scare resource: A player at the keyboard.


True but IMO anyone can buy 200 rifters, not everyone can find 200 friends to fly them.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2011-12-17 00:02:26 UTC
Yes?

Welcome to EVE.
Bigger is not better (and “better” exists on at least five different axes).
Price does not measure performance and does even not scale linearly with itself.
Marginal improvements come at massive expense.

So what? All of these are intended design decisions to create balance and variety.

Nothing is ****** up — you've just acknowledged that things are working perfectly. Straight
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#59 - 2011-12-17 00:04:57 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Ignoring tank, damage application and deployability makes your thread a complete fail

i did want to add tanking ability but on that field the problem is just as bad, while deploy ability you know small ships will excel at movement while big ships suck at it.

specially now on times of hot dropping everywhere.

also all this ships are using blasters so their damage aplication is the same, or actually it makes the problem worse, the destroyers will be able to apply their damage at EVERYTHING, while the battleship is solely limited to other ships of its class or battlecruisers if lucky.



Sure because the tank, damage application, cap stability and deployability of a Siege Dreadnought makes it so unfair to those Abaddon pilots....

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-12-17 00:14:48 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Feligast wrote:
This is the worst thread.


In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies