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DPS/size/price ratio is ****** up... should it be acknowledged?

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Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#21 - 2011-12-16 17:54:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
Please show me the cruiser in your example that deals battleship-level DPS

745 thorax with 5 medium drones price 3 mill
1.5 months for this fit.


MAX DPS of other battleships:
Maelstrom AC Hail: 1208 dps with 4 heavy drones
Rokh Blasters void: 1146 dps with 5 mid drones
Abaddon Beam conflagration : 1212 with 2 heavy and 3 mid drones

time to skill for those dps on battleships:
5 months

difference of DPS= 30%
difference of price= battleship fit = 200mil cruiser fit = 8 mil, 33 times more expensive battleships.

ability to hit other stuff:
Cruiser can hit anything big or small
battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#22 - 2011-12-16 18:00:27 UTC
Andski wrote:
and dreads won't even hit moving supercarriers when they're in siege



this is not about if the ships can hit or not the smaller ships, jesus -.-

and yes i know 33 times more price dont means i get 33 more perfomance, but it would be nice if i get at least 3 times more perfomance.

HOWEVER! in weapons.

double size DO MEANS double damage.(asuming same speed for kinetic or double wattage for lasers)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-12-16 18:04:12 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Andski wrote:
Please show me the cruiser in your example that deals battleship-level DPS

745 thorax with 5 medium drones price 3 mill
1.5 months for this fit.


MAX DPS of other battleships:
Maelstrom AC Hail: 1208 dps with 4 heavy drones
Rokh Blasters void: 1146 dps with 5 mid drones
Abaddon Beam conflagration : 1212 with 2 heavy and 3 mid drones

time to skill for those dps on battleships:
5 months

difference of DPS= 30%
difference of price= battleship fit = 200mil cruiser fit = 8 mil, 33 times more expensive battleships.

ability to hit other stuff:
Cruiser can hit anything big or small
battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships.


Tell me all about using Conflag with beams. Try a pulse Abaddon instead.

also, cruisers can't hit anywhere near as far as battleships even in short-range configurations.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2011-12-16 18:04:54 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
this is not about if the ships can hit or not the smaller ships, jesus -.-

and yes i know 33 times more price dont means i get 33 more perfomance, but it would be nice if i get at least 3 times more perfomance.

HOWEVER! in weapons.

double size DO MEANS double damage.(asuming same speed for kinetic or double wattage for lasers)


Sadly, this is the quality of posting we expect from F-Con.

EFT DPS and In-Game DPS are vastly different, if your not talking about the ability to hit a ship, the very idea of even mentioning damage is pointless. Since when do battleships have a hard time hitting Battlecruisers Lol or even cruisers for that matter?

mkint
#25 - 2011-12-16 18:05:16 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
mkint wrote:
Leisen wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Ignoring tank, damage application and deployability makes your thread a complete fail

This.

OP is far from scientific. Where did you get your numbers? What loadouts are you using? What skills are you using? What other advantages and disadvantages might that ship have?

Better evaluation might be "what is the value of the most expensive thing this ship is expected to be able to kill/confront." Although that is less scientific it would be safe to say that the value of a ship is what it can actually DO, not just some arbitrary number that people who suck at EFT want to pull out of their ass. (I'm a big believer that EFT will show you almost any information you need to know about a ship, just that most people absolutely suck at using it. OP is an example of why.)


I AGREE COMPLETELY in that the numbers themselves dont mean much until applied to an actual situation, but let me ask you this:

if we were shooting a station for example, what would you expect, your battleship to do more less or equal damage to a cruiser that is 10 times smaller and costed 30 times less, and what is the damage difference between ships you would expect?

loadouts on all the ships are the biggest set of blasters they can fit with void ammo, full ehp amor tank, mwds or abs, web and scrammer and tracking computers on the ones taht have slots left.

*yawn* boring counter argument. How well would a cruiser contribute to a spider tanked gang bringing down that station?

Face it, your argument is a fail.

In fact, the only real problem between ship cost/value is not in the cost itself, but method of acquisition. To get sov, you need supers. To get supers, you need sov. That is broken.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#26 - 2011-12-16 18:06:22 UTC
Andski1 wrote:

Tell me all about using Conflag with beams. Try a pulse Abaddon instead.

also, cruisers can't hit anywhere near as far as battleships even in short-range configurations.



yeah sorry i mean Pulse and yes i know, again this is not about range or how easy or hard is it to apply the damage, is about the amount of damage related to the size and price of some ships.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#27 - 2011-12-16 18:07:35 UTC
Quote:
*yawn* boring counter argument. How well would a cruiser contribute to a spider tanked gang bringing down that station?

Face it, your argument is a fail.

In fact, the only real problem between ship cost/value is not in the cost itself, but method of acquisition. To get sov, you need supers. To get supers, you need sov. That is broken.




again is not about how effective the ship is overall in a fleet or in combat, but about HOW MUCH DAMAGE it applies related to its size.
bonoMonsterK
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-12-16 18:09:20 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Andski wrote:
and dreads won't even hit moving supercarriers when they're in siege



this is not about if the ships can hit or not the smaller ships, jesus -.-

and yes i know 33 times more price dont means i get 33 more perfomance, but it would be nice if i get at least 3 times more perfomance.

HOWEVER! in weapons.

double size DO MEANS double damage.(asuming same speed for kinetic or double wattage for lasers)


Hi , I am not pvping for quite long now ... but ... u must be joking :) If u are comparing rax vs ac maelstrom . U can kill 3 thoraxes with one maelstrom without problem -> ("would be nice if i get at least 3 times more perfomance").
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#29 - 2011-12-16 18:09:35 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:


why big ships got such a ******* ineffective damage ratio compared to their price? and why size to damage ratio is so Small? twice the size, but 15% more damage ?



The real answer is "because CCP feels like it", but for arguments sake about internet space ships in a world of pixels - haven't you ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-16 18:11:29 UTC
First off, either drop the Moros from the comparison or atleast don't factor in siege mode. Even then its questionable whether it could achieve even close to its paper/EFT dps against anything other than other capitals.

Secondly, your 745 Thorax dps figure looks way bogus.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/53689-Thorax-31k-EHP-615-DPS.html
is an actual fitting for pvp with a dps of 615. Its a tad higher following the Crucible buff but not much. And its full T2 so its already costing way more than 3 million.
So link your fit please.

Finally, take out the T2 and faction ships or list them seperately. Its common knowledge that both offer a modest increase in dps for a massive increase in price over T1.
bonoMonsterK
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-12-16 18:11:41 UTC
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#32 - 2011-12-16 18:13:59 UTC
Takseen wrote:
First off, either drop the Moros from the comparison or atleast don't factor in siege mode. Even then its questionable whether it could achieve even close to its paper/EFT dps against anything other than other capitals.

Secondly, your 745 Thorax dps figure looks way bogus.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/53689-Thorax-31k-EHP-615-DPS.html
is an actual fitting for pvp with a dps of 615. Its a tad higher following the Crucible buff but not much. And its full T2 so its already costing way more than 3 million.
So link your fit please.

Finally, take out the T2 and faction ships or list them seperately. Its common knowledge that both offer a modest increase in dps for a massive increase in price over T1.



using 3 field stabilizers
even with the t2 modules it will cost about 8 mill. way much more cheaper than the cheapest battleship. and did you count drones?
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#33 - 2011-12-16 18:14:49 UTC
bonoMonsterK wrote:
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)



if you get a ceptor pilot into web range that pilot is a complete idiot O,o
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-12-16 18:16:32 UTC
here's the numbers I'm getting:

Thorax, t2 heavy neutrons, void, 2 magstabs, 5 hammerheads: 680 DPS 3.9k optimal with 4.1k falloff (and you're /not/ getting those numbers with 1.5 months of training, bro)

Abaddon, t2 mega pulses, navy multi, 5 hammerheads: 949 dps, 17km optimal with 13km falloff (that's with two tracking computers and 2 heat sinks)

Megathron, t2 neutrons, null, 5 ogres: 967 dps, 13km optimal with 20km falloff (two TCs, two magstabs) and 1291 dps at 7.7km optimal + 8.1km falloff with void.

Let's not forget the massive difference in EHP between the ships!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-12-16 18:20:55 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
bonoMonsterK wrote:
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)



if you get a ceptor pilot into web range that pilot is a complete idiot O,o


Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-12-16 18:22:53 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
basically there is a big, huge gap of DPS and sizes between sub and capital ships. and TOO small gap among sub capital ships.

battleships are on the range of the 600 to 1600 dps, while a dreadnought DPS starts at staggering 13000 on siegue mode.
i feel the boundary that separates ship damage roles is becoming too diffuse, since they have way too similar stats:

Highest dps per class: (mostly blasters...) ____________ _____________DPS/ price Ratio with previous class
frigate _____________255 ( incursus __________50k
Assault ships _______352 (Enyo _____________11 mil _____________ 1.5/220
faction frigate _______423 (daredevil __________69 mil _____________ 1.5/6
destroyer __________583 (Catalyst ___________100k _____________1.2/0.0014
Cruiser ___________745 (thorax _____________3 mill _____________1.5/30
Heavy assault ______892 (Deimos ___________100 mill ___________ 1.1/33
Faction cruiser _____980 (vigilant _____________280 mil ___________1.2/3
Battlecruiser _______980 (brutix _____________17 mill _____________ 1/0.06
tier 3 BC __________1351 (talos ____________55 mill _____________ 1.3/3
Command ship ____1186 (Astarte ___________189 mill _____________0.8/3
Battleship ________1506 (Hyperion __________139 mill ____________ 1.4/0.6
Faction battleship___1694 (vindicator _________1bill _______________ 1.1/9
Marauder _________1411 (Kronos ___________750 mill _____________ 0.8/0.7
Moros ______ _____13233 (moros __________1.8 bill _______________10/2

at least on blaster ships, the dps gap can be noticed, on the other ships, their DPSs in general are sooo close to each other, all the ships are basically the same thing dps wise.

why big ships got such a ******* ineffective damage ratio compared to their price? and why size to damage ratio is so Small? twice the size, but 15% more damage ?

it would be nice if maybe ships dps ranges were scaled better compared to their price and size.

lets put this way, 3 destroyers, will do 1500 dps, for 300k isk, and having hull size of 65 meters.
this makes them: 1400 times more price effective than battleships, able to kill anything smaller or bigger, and being 15 times smaller.


Everyone chill the **** out, I got this.


We're removing all ships, except one, which shall now be known as ''the ship''

You choose how much isk you want to pay for it.

It has no modules.

It's speed, tank and DPS are set as a linear function of the amount of ISK you dropped on it.
1000000 isk? 100 dps.
1000000000 isk? 100 000 dps.

Problem solved.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
mkint
#37 - 2011-12-16 18:25:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
bonoMonsterK wrote:
And "battleship, lucky if it can hit battlecruisers or other battleships." -> U can kill even interceptor with web and good trans speed , in battleship ;)



if you get a ceptor pilot into web range that pilot is a complete idiot O,o


Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

I forget the numbers, but aren't there boats that can get 40km webs? Like a boosted bhaalgorn or something? And ceptor pilot's tackle range = 24km?

OP's obviously never played EVE though. Some miner who's brain is scrambled from staring at rocks all day. It's so very very time for this thread to die.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-12-16 18:28:16 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:


using 3 field stabilizers
even with the t2 modules it will cost about 8 mill. way much more cheaper than the cheapest battleship. and did you count drones?


Ahh yes now I see. You definitely need to include module costs for this comparison though, otherwise its skewed in favour of the cheaper hulls.
But yes, if you want cheap cost effective dps, smaller hulls are the way to go. Likewise the bigger your hull, the more cost effective your tank gets.
Ranya Delnas
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-12-16 18:28:33 UTC
It boils down to this its harder to get more pilots than it is for people to get bigger ships, and besides your calculations are fundamentally flawed.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2011-12-16 18:34:32 UTC
mkint wrote:
Andski wrote:
Huginn. Rapier.

Put a nice faction web on one of those with Claymore bonuses and you'll easily web some silly interceptor pilot.

I forget the numbers, but aren't there boats that can get 40km webs? Like a boosted bhaalgorn or something? And ceptor pilot's tackle range = 24km?


Pretty sure Andski already answered this question. Interceptors can be hit by battleships if the MWD in at the wrong angle (even with Interceptor V). Save the argument for people that understand the mechanics and have flown under these conditions.

Just because your in a Frigate doesn't mean your impervious to large guns, a well skilled player will exploit the simplest mistake you make and take down your ship.