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The Battle Rorq Lament
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Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2014-11-14 02:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
TL;DR -

  • Rorqs could have an industrial core and a battle core, only one or the other could be equipped.
  • They need either a stronger base capacitor or a bonus to remote capacitor tranfer or more power grid.
  • A mini POS bubble that lasts 10 minutes and drains an asteroid and destroys the industrial core; could save some barges if a response fleet is fast.
  • Mini bubble could be tied to Industrial core and the capacitor "fixes" could be tied to the combat core.


Orcas would have a 5 minute bubble.

Industrial core destruction would also be in such a way that you can't change it in space, only docking in a station and repairing it allows the unit that has melted into the ship to be extracted properly.

------------ End of Summary ------------


Let us pretend for a minute that we want to see Rorquals in battle.

The overwhelming problem I see with it, (and the Nid) is a lack of capacitor recharge. Flip on one capital remote shield repair and it falls flat. No way you are going to get near running three of them. Can get 1M eHP and 7000 repp tank and even keep it stable but then it can't turn on any high slots and it needs to neut to do that.
If there were two Rorq's trying to repair each other, both being hit, they would splat.

So, either they need more cap recharge to be over sized Scimitars or they need capacitor transfer bonuses to be over sized Basalisks.

How would you alter them to see them work in combat?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

In EVE, combat is often inevitable. The post is about giving the Rorqual a fighting chance to defend itself, not to make it into some sort of epic battlebadger. Even with the proposed changes, the ship is still far worse in combat than any carrier, yet costs even more.


Lady Rift wrote:

CCP wants these to be used in belts

The OP's idea's are a step in that direction. If POS bubble or reinforcement mode maybe a locked asteroid to make it active and when it comes out it destroys the asteroid it was locked to

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-11-14 03:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
If you want to Carrier fly a carrier. If you're just defending from rats it's fine. If you're being attacked by a flotilla of combat ships, you are going to die.

E: only way I could justify this is if you removed the drone bonus
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#3 - 2014-11-14 03:31:22 UTC
The remote boosting bonus is there so that an officer spawn doesn't scram the whole mining fleet and then wipe them out. It's only meant to use one.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2014-11-14 04:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
It's only meant to use one.

^^ This. Before Ancillary Shield Boosters were introduced the convention for active shield tanking was one booster. No more.

The reason for this is, as you have noted OP, the capacitor requirements are enormous. In return, a single shield booster can provide a massive burst tank.

Key word here is "burst." Active shield repping was not designed to be an endurance tank. That belongs to armor.

Besides... when you compare a combat Roqual to a non-triage Archon the numbers come out somewhat similar.

Some examples:

[Rorqual, PvP-Rorqual]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Capital Shield Booster I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Garde II x5


VERSUS...

[Archon, Non-Triage Archon]

Damage Control II
Capital Armor Repairer I
Capital Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Capital Remote Armor Repairer I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I

Garde II x10


VERSUS...

[Chimera, Non-Triage Chimera]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Co-Processor II

Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Capital Shield Booster I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Garde II x10



Stats (with level 5 skills):

Local tank: ~5600 hp/sec (Rorqual) vs. ~3100 hp/sec (Archon) vs. ~7000 hp/sec (Chimera)
Cap life with only local tank: ~10 minutes (Rorqual) vs. 73% stable (Archon) vs. ~11 minutes (Chimera)
Cap life with everything on: ~2 minutes (Roqual) vs. ~3.5 minutes (Archon) vs. ~2 minutes (Chimera)
Remote repairs hp/sec: All are equal at 900 hp/sec
Offense: All are equal at ~550 dps with a range of ~30km


So it isn't the Rorqual's capacitor that is a problem per se... it is the capacitor requirements of the shield booster. However that was by design (as pretty much all non-ASB shield boosters have the same issue).
So we move on to the secondary problem; the lack of capacitor rejuvenation options for shield tankers in general.

NOTE: The reason I used the Archon and Chimera is because...

- the Archon is considered "the best" carrier of the four (having the best capacitor recharge, capacitor size, fitting room, layout, and armor resistance bonus)
- the Chimera is LEAGUES better than the Nidhoggur (which literally shield tanks just as good as it armor tanks) and a shield tanking capital is needed for comparison.


Other thoughts:

- the reason the Chimera gets a MUCH higher hp/sec number compared to a Rorqual is because of its shield resistance bonus. Without it, the Chimera would largely get the same tanking numbers.

- the Rorqual needs some love... but nothing too gimmicky. What it needs are some buffs to be just capable as a "normal" carrier (because a Rorqual is essentially a carrier).

How did you Veterans start?
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-11-14 12:56:40 UTC
Rorqual isn't a combat ship. I'm surprised I even bothered to respond to an OP this daft.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#6 - 2014-11-14 14:06:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
Rorqual isn't a combat ship. I'm surprised I even bothered to respond to an OP this daft.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Let us pretend for a minute that we want to see Rorquals in battle.

Roll
ShahFluffers wrote:
So we move on to the secondary problem; the lack of capacitor rejuvenation options for shield tankers.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The overwhelming problem I see with it, (and the Nid) is a lack of capacitor recharge.


Edit: You are only going to see a Rorq outside of a POS if there a complete numptie in it. So, this is all hypothetical.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#7 - 2014-11-14 14:08:21 UTC
If anything, then only self defence, and that means massive ECM.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#8 - 2014-11-14 20:38:01 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
If anything, then only self defence, and that means massive ECM.

Capital Multispectral ECM - 100% chance to jam any subcapital ship for 5 seconds. 5 second cycle Roll
Jenshae Chiroptera
#9 - 2014-12-05 04:32:50 UTC
One thing being hoped for is that a Rorq could spawn a POS like bubble for miners to hide in if need be.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-12-05 05:39:06 UTC
Can't they generate capacitor with capital capacitor transfers?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#11 - 2014-12-06 03:34:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Can't they generate capacitor with capital capacitor transfers?


It lacks the PG to fit two, so using 1 cap transfer in a chain with other Rorqs and three heavy neuts on a friendly or reds it gets (12x3)+85= 121GJ/s with perfect skills, which leaves 146+121-310 = -43GJ/s to run just one remote shield repair, never mind a second one or a shield booster and runs dry in 5 minutes.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-12-06 05:29:19 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
It lacks the PG to fit two, so using 1 cap transfer in a chain with other Rorqs and three heavy neuts on a friendly or reds it gets (12x3)+85= 121GJ/s with perfect skills, which leaves 146+121-310 = -43GJ/s to run just one remote shield repair, never mind a second one or a shield booster and runs dry in 5 minutes.

Wow, I never realized the Rorqual has so little powergrid. It has only 305,000 MW, while even the Chimera has 450,000 MW.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#13 - 2014-12-06 15:45:41 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
It lacks the PG to fit two, so using 1 cap transfer in a chain with other Rorqs and three heavy neuts on a friendly or reds it gets (12x3)+85= 121GJ/s with perfect skills, which leaves 146+121-310 = -43GJ/s to run just one remote shield repair, never mind a second one or a shield booster and runs dry in 5 minutes.

Wow, I never realized the Rorqual has so little powergrid. It has only 305,000 MW, while even the Chimera has 450,000 MW.

Yup.

However, you can still work with the PG. Good tank, shield booster, one cap transfer, two remote shield repair all fit. The problem is the base cap regen or failing that a boost the remote cap transfer. I think making the Rorq like a huge Basilisk would be the best one to satisfy people because it means two or more would have to be fielded if they were ever used. Pirate

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-12-07 03:59:07 UTC
Given that they don't have any bonuses to logi modules, I think it makes sense to give them enough powergrid to fit those. While carriers can (assuming no neuts) run souped-up onboard reps indefinitely without spider tanking, using only a triage module, rorquals would be forced to run multiple cap transfers with a buddy just to sustain the on-board rep which isn't bonused by a triage module. That, along with only 5 drones which can't be fighters, leaves the Rorqual a far cry weaker in combat than a carrier. I see no need to also disallow the one thing it needs to be successful.

My thoughts: buff the Rorqual's powergrid by at least 100,000 MW.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#15 - 2014-12-08 04:11:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Given that they don't have any bonuses to logi modules, I think it makes sense to give them enough powergrid to fit those. While carriers can (assuming no neuts) run souped-up onboard reps indefinitely without spider tanking, using only a triage module, rorquals would be forced to run multiple cap transfers with a buddy just to sustain the on-board rep which isn't bonused by a triage module. That, along with only 5 drones which can't be fighters, leaves the Rorqual a far cry weaker in combat than a carrier. I see no need to also disallow the one thing it needs to be successful.

My thoughts: buff the Rorqual's powergrid by at least 100,000 MW.


One or other of our solutions or the POS like bubble idea. +1

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-12-10 09:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I would like to see certain capital ships able to anchor and act like a POS. Not with a protective bubble, but with at least the ability to go into reinforced mode if its shields and armor are broken. Would also be neat if they had a reactive defense setup that would begin consuming capacitor booster charges and/or liquid ozone from storage to provide capacitor to run necessary defensive modules like shield boosters or armor repairers, which would automatically cycle when there is enough damage dealt to warrant it. That way you can leave it there and go dock somewhere or cloak before you go offline. It would go into reinforced mode once the armor had been depleted and the first shot hits structure.


edit:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
One or other of our solutions or the POS like bubble idea. +1

why not all three?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#17 - 2014-12-10 12:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

edit:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
One or other of our solutions or the POS like bubble idea. +1

why not all three?


For Orcas and Industrial fit Rorqals I like the idea of a mini POS bubble. As I say in my new blog (in my signature) it is about time. If the station is bubbled or your WH POS, etc you can bubble up and a 700M can save 15+ 220M Hulks. They have to stay awake though, can bump the bubble to try move it in order to stop it protecting a barge and it doesn't last long.

Five or Ten minutes is not a very long time and it creates a gamble. Can a response fleet be formed fast enough? Will there be enough of them? Can they extract most of the barges? Will they have enough logi?

.... but now there is probably going to be a fight, rather than dock up or die.

Edit: Almost forgot, I try not to ask for too many things at once, people tend to complain it will be over powered or CCP ignores it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-12-10 12:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
But Hulks can dock with a Rorqual.

I've thought it might be reasonable to change the Rorqual's ship maintenance hangar to, instead of having a specified amount of space, have a specific number of "barge slots" with a total ability to fit more net ship volume due to the restriction. It could have a smaller standard ship maintenance hangar in addition to this, to allow a small number of ventures, haulers, or friendly combat assistance vessels to dock.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#19 - 2014-12-10 12:22:01 UTC
One thing I am hoping for is a clear line between the Rorqs with Industrial Cores and those without. The ones that have it would be able to turn on a POS bubble so long as they have an asteroid locked. This would put the Rorq in the field instead of in a POS boosting.
It means that random little nuisances that can't do much aren't a concern and a system doesn't have to be disturbed because three interceptors have arrived.

Essentially, those with the planning and resources can take a measure against roaming pests. If they turn it on and it turns out to be a gang of T3s then ooopps now they might lose the mining fleet. Now they have to get people in there to fight and rescue them.

The Rorqs that don't use Industrial Cores would be the ones that would act as "Battle Rorqs" I am even thinking that maybe they need a Combat Core to give them the PG / Remote Cap boosts that we outlined.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-12-10 12:26:48 UTC
I don't see why it needs a POS bubble as long as it can enter reinforced mode. Being able to protect a small fleet that can dock in its maintenance hangar is fine, but it shouldn't have an actual POS bubble or it'll immediately become the new meta and get used as a mobile POS for combat operations.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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