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Are Logistic Tech I hulls useful?
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Penumbra Sonolum
#1 - 2014-12-06 21:17:37 UTC
So, I want to learn logistics, I always liked the support role on MMOs, I was reading (and watching) somethings about it, you know, guides, articles and people discussions. My problem is that whatever I read (and there isn't much stuff to read compared to other professions) people only talks about tech II hulls. I was looking the ship bonus on a tech II and it seems infinite better than the tech I, I feel like there is no middle ground, you either are a good or bad. Everyone seems to talk about how important is Logistic V and all. Now, I do intend to get there and fly a tech II, but it will take me 1 month!

My intent was to fly a tech I and learn the deal, but people talk about them like they are completely obsolete.

Is there some use for a tech I logistic?
How much better is a tech II when compared to a tech I?
Should I just wait to fly a tech II?

Tips are welcome.

I was told that logistic can have a great impact on the outcome of a fight (not sure if its true), it would be a bummer if I had to wait that long to be actually useful.

I'm sorry for any mistake, english is my second language.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-12-06 22:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:
I was told that logistic can have a great impact on the outcome of a fight (not sure if its true), it would be a bummer if I had to wait that long to be actually useful.

Logistics can have a VERY big impact on a fight... sometimes just by being there (I have seen fleets run away when they found out I had logistics ships in my fleet).

So yes... they are very useful and will be welcomed by almost everyone.



With regards to the rest of your post... let me post some fits and explain them to you.

[Augoror, Tech 1 Armor Logistics]

Damage Control II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Medium 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Medium 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Medium 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

VERSUS

[Guardian, Tech 2 Armor Logistics]

Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II



What do they have in common?

- They both require a "partner ship" of the same type and fit. The reason is that they need to be transferring power between each other (doing so "magically" creates extra power that can be used).

- They both repair armor

- They will both be targeted first by other players.


What is the difference between the two?

- The Augoror (Tech 1) has ~30,000 effective hitpoints... the Guardian (Tech 2) has ~50,000 effective hitpoints

- The Augoror (Tech 1) costs about 30 to 50 million ISK fully fit... the Guardian (Tech 2) costs more than 200 million.

- The Aguoror (Tech 1) uses medium remote repairs, allowing it to "heal" about ~180 damage per second... the Guardian (Tech 2) uses large remote repairs, allowing it to "heal" about ~300 damage per second.


What does this mean?

- The Guardian is "better" than the Augoror... but the cost of the Guardian may not be worth it for small, cheap fleets.
This is pretty much the same difference between the Tech 1 and Tech 2 combat ships.

- very few people will turn down someone who is willing to be a "healer ship" (henceforth known as "Logistics Ships").

- if you get good at being Logistics you will be in VERY high demand.



Do take a look at Frigate Logistics ships. They are cheap and an easy way to "get your feet wet" in the specialty of Remote Repairs. Just be sure to buy them in bulk because they WILL die very fast (while still making a difference in battle).

How did you Veterans start?
Penumbra Sonolum
#3 - 2014-12-06 23:19:14 UTC
Ah, thanks for the response ShahFluffers.
If I understood correctly from the stats that you gave me, the T1 can be pretty good, I thought it was way worse, but the T2 is a obvious objective for someone who can afford and have the skills.

Quote:
Logistics can have a VERY big impact on a fight... sometimes just by being there (I have seen fleets run away when they found out I had logistics ships in my fleet).


I like this, that was exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping for! Big smile

Quote:
Do take a look at Frigate Logistics ships. They are cheap and an easy way to "get your feet wet" in the specialty of Remote Repairs. Just be sure to buy them in bulk because they WILL die very fast (while still making a difference in battle).


About getting my feet wet, I read somewhere that incursions are good for learning logistics. Would be because of the fact that Incursions are PvE? Because you said that they will target me, in PvE is the same? Or should I take a different path?

Sorry for asking so many things!!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2014-12-06 23:39:01 UTC
Heh... no worries. Asking questions is what this forum section is all about.

Yes, using Tech 2 ships is the obvious objective.
But I can guarantee that there will be times where where using a Tech 1 ship is preferred (either due to risk, lack of money, don't want to scare targets away, etc).

If you wish to go beyond Tech 2 Logistic Cruisers then have a look at Carriers. They represent the ultimate "healer" platform... however they can only be flown out in < 0.4 systems (where anyone and everyone can engage you at will) and have very high requirements in terms of character skill, money, and friendly player support.


With regards to Incursions... someone else will have to explain this for you. I am only familiar with the basics.

How did you Veterans start?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-12-07 00:07:40 UTC
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:
So, I want to learn logistics, I always liked the support role on MMOs, I was reading (and watching) somethings about it, you know, guides, articles and people discussions. My problem is that whatever I read (and there isn't much stuff to read compared to other professions) people only talks about tech II hulls. I was looking the ship bonus on a tech II and it seems infinite better than the tech I, I feel like there is no middle ground, you either are a good or bad. Everyone seems to talk about how important is Logistic V and all. Now, I do intend to get there and fly a tech II, but it will take me 1 month!

My intent was to fly a tech I and learn the deal, but people talk about them like they are completely obsolete.

Is there some use for a tech I logistic?
How much better is a tech II when compared to a tech I?
Should I just wait to fly a tech II?

Tips are welcome.

I was told that logistic can have a great impact on the outcome of a fight (not sure if its true), it would be a bummer if I had to wait that long to be actually useful.

I'm sorry for any mistake, english is my second language.


The reason most guides use the T2 logistics cruisers:

A. They are WAY better as you found out.
B. They are WAY older then the T1 Logi cruisers. If you turn back the time 2 years, those T1 logi cruiser, were actually mining bonused cruisers. Till CCP did the major ship overhaul.




Now for your question.

Yes, they are useful in fleets. Sure, a T2 Logi will be better, but if you have the choice between none or T1...everybody will pick T1.

If you have the option of having 2 T2 logi cruiser in your fleet...or 2 T2 and 5 T1...you will pick the latter.

Everybody loves logi...even if it is T1.

And the fun part, they aren't as good in their bonus. But they are also WAY cheaper to fund, so people tend to fly them more easily (as being logi also kind of signs your death sentence).


Also, do NOT wait till you can fly a T2 logi (for that you will need Logi skill to at least IV, but if possible V).

Why, because, if you do you will start the whole logi-learning curve in expensive stuff. Use the T1 logi to gain experience while you train for that T2 option (I say option as it is not uncommon for T2 capable logi pilots to just grab a T1 version).

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Penumbra Sonolum
#6 - 2014-12-07 00:31:16 UTC
Quote:
If you have the option of having 2 T2 logi cruiser in your fleet...or 2 T2 and 5 T1...you will pick the latter.


That's a interesting information, especially because I think that 5 T1 ships are cheaper than 2 T2 considering the prices that ShahFluffers post it.

Quote:
And the fun part, they aren't as good in their bonus. But they are also WAY cheaper to fund, so people tend to fly them more easily (as being logi also kind of signs your death sentence).


I guess is better for me enjoy my time as a T1 Logi, I wasn't aware that Logistic ships die so much, I should have though.

Thanks for the advice, I shall not wait until T2! Instead I will bravely die as a T1 as many times as possible until I get the hang of it!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-12-07 00:44:52 UTC
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:

I guess is better for me enjoy my time as a T1 Logi, I wasn't aware that Logistic ships die so much, I should have though.

Thanks for the advice, I shall not wait until T2! Instead I will bravely die as a T1 as many times as possible until I get the hang of it!


They are force multipliers in a fight (as Shah said).


Take down their logistics, you take down their "main" tank ability...

So Logi, together with Ewar, are quite high on the priority lists of FCs.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Penumbra Sonolum
#8 - 2014-12-07 01:15:16 UTC
Quote:
So Logi, together with Ewar, are quite high on the priority lists of FCs.


Ha! I didn't even knew what EWAR was, that goes to show me how noob I am. It seems like a very interesting role too, though very difficult at first sight, at least from my point of view.

What can I say? I like to be a force multiplier! Big smile
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-12-07 01:22:17 UTC
Incursions tend to require high skill point logistics pilots that can keep ten or more ships locked.

And PVP logistics or any PVP combat role is always infinitely different from PVE. PVE doesn't really qualify as moving against an intelligent hostile entity that is trying to kill you. In a pvp fight involving logistics and with both commanders being prepared for the enemy's logistics you will expect things like ewar on the field. A good target caller will switch primaries in a way that will stress or overwhelm the enemy logistics even if they can outrep the dps on paper.

You can try learning logistics in small gang warfare or even just jumping into fleet combat. Just be prepared to die often - and you might even die before you have any situational awareness regarding why you died. But logistics is a very rewarding job, and you do get a rush when you keep someone alive who would have died without your reps.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Penumbra Sonolum
#10 - 2014-12-07 02:00:36 UTC
Quote:
And PVP logistics or any PVP combat role is always infinitely different from PVE. PVE doesn't really qualify as moving against an intelligent hostile entity that is trying to kill you. In a pvp fight involving logistics and with both commanders being prepared for the enemy's logistics you will expect things like ewar on the field. A good target caller will switch primaries in a way that will stress or overwhelm the enemy logistics even if they can outrep the dps on paper.


I see, so if I understood correctly training in a PVE environment wouldn't give me the experience that I need for PVP right?

Quote:
You can try learning logistics in small gang warfare or even just jumping into fleet combat. Just be prepared to die often - and you might even die before you have any situational awareness regarding why you died. But logistics is a very rewarding job, and you do get a rush when you keep someone alive who would have died without your reps.


Bear with my lack of knowledge please, when you mean "small gang warfare" you are talking about a fleet on a FW right? Is it easy to find those fleets?

Quote:
or even just jumping into fleet combat


Like a fleet in null or lowsec? I have no idea how to find these fleets, are they something exclusive to Corps?

I have to admit that I tried to use that "Fleet Finder", but had no success.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-12-07 02:03:00 UTC
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:
My problem is that whatever I read (and there isn't much stuff to read compared to other professions) people only talks about tech II hulls.

When I started playing EVE I too wanted to become a logi pilot and I ran into the exact same problem.^^
The T1 logis have many uses but almost all of them are in PvP. ...Which isn't a bad thing, but it means that you need to find a corp that does lot's of PvP, so that you can practice.

Incursions are a nice way for a logi pilot to make ISK, but they won't teach you very much other than how to stare at the broadcast window for hours without falling asleep.
Also incursion fleets will only take T2 logis with them which is ofc bad news for a newbro.

But generally: flying logi in PvP is a really cool thing if you are someone who likes support roles.
Saving a ship that would have died without your intervention is a great feeling, especially because, unlike in other MMOs ,it matters a lot whether that ship dies or lives - if it dies it's permanently gone and someone has to build a new one.

btw. in case you haven't already seen it: Rooks and Kings - Iron Clad
(every logi pilot should know the R&K videos)
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-12-07 02:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:

I see, so if I understood correctly training in a PVE environment wouldn't give me the experience that I need for PVP right?

You don't need experience for PvP. You'll just die more often without it. :-P
however: "exploding is learning" Blink
(but yeah, PvE won't really help for leaning how to PvP)

Penumbra Sonolum wrote:
Like a fleet in null or lowsec? I have no idea how to find these fleets, are they something exclusive to Corps?

There are public fleets, e.g. the RvB ganked roam, but it's usually something that is done as part of a corporation.
"small gang warfare" just means "a couple of people flying around and shooting stuff" as opposed to "huge fleets filled with hundreds of F1 mokeys that lag the cr*p out of the server" and isn't restricted to FW.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-12-07 02:17:51 UTC
T1 logi are amazing. I fly exequrors all the time.

I do prefer the guardian to the augoror. Reason being is the strategy for cap chaining logistics is buddy up and take it like a man, and the guardian is quite a bit tankier than the augoror. Whereas the exequror/onerios can be fit to kite while repping, making them excellent for small gang applications.

My corp recently killed a blinged vindicator with 5 t1 cruisers and I kept them all alive with my lone exequror.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Penumbra Sonolum
#14 - 2014-12-07 02:48:24 UTC
Quote:
But generally: flying logi in PvP is a really cool thing if you are someone who likes support roles.
Saving a ship that would have died without your intervention is a great feeling, especially because, unlike in other MMOs ,it matters a lot whether that ship dies or lives - if it dies it's permanently gone and someone has to build a new one.

btw. in case you haven't already seen it: Rooks and Kings - Iron Clad
(every logi pilot should know the R&K videos)


Hopefully I will be saving people soon, I really do like the support role, its always been my primary choice in any MMO.

I just saw the video, it was really cool, but I have to admit that I'm still unable to grasp everything that is going on. I mean, fights in EVE are quite messy. What?

Quote:
T1 logi are amazing. I fly exequrors all the time.

I do prefer the guardian to the augoror. Reason being is the strategy for cap chaining logistics is buddy up and take it like a man, and the guardian is quite a bit tankier than the augoror. Whereas the exequror/onerios can be fit to kite while repping, making them excellent for small gang applications.

My corp recently killed a blinged vindicator with 5 t1 cruisers and I kept them all alive with my lone exequror.


That's amazing that you were able to keep everyone alive *-*, I hope one day I will able to tell stories about how I was able to save people from impossible situations and thank you for giving me a insight on the ships, I was already asking myself witch one should I train to fly.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-12-07 02:58:46 UTC
My first experience with flying logi was with a few corp members who were running level 4 missions. It was a very stress free way to get used to things like paying attention to the watchlist and managing the reppers in a way that doesn't kill your cap. It's not a good way to train for flying in a pvp fleet, but it's an easy way to ease into the idea.

If you're sticking with small fleets where you are the only logi (or one of a very few) you might want to fly a Scythe or Exequror. With enough training time and proper fitting, they can be much more independent. The Osprey and Augoror are better suited for fleets with multiple logi ships who can help each other with capacitor boosts.

And despite the fact that T2 logistics ships are much better than their T1 counterparts, I don't know anyone in their right mind who will turn away extra reppers.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2014-12-07 02:59:40 UTC
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:

Bear with my lack of knowledge please, when you mean "small gang warfare" you are talking about a fleet on a FW right? Is it easy to find those fleets?


Small gang is a rule of thumb term for a "small fleet" that will not overwhelm a single pilot's ability to comprehend its capabilities.

Very few human beings are able to effectively command full 250 man fleets. Which is why as a logistics pilot you always keep the fc alive. No one may be able to replace him.

On the other hand it is good tactics to headshot fcs and backup fcs. Entire fleets are lost or incapacitated to leadership decapitation.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2014-12-07 03:18:01 UTC
Just an FYI. The tech 1 logistics frigates are pretty poor. They aren't *totally* worthless, but they are very fragile, do not have a large degree of remote repping power, and are extremely difficult to fit effectively. I tried designing a fleet doctrine for my corporation that was going to use them, and it did not work.

Notably, they really struggle to fit an afterburner, a full rack of remote reppers and any sort of tank, but remove the afterburner and they are sitting ducks. A microwarpdrive is even harder to fit, and is murder on your capacitor (making you less able to sustain remote repairs) and your signature radius (making you easier to track).

This weakness has one positive side effect, however - the specialist modules that only frigate logi use are *extremely* cheap, so if you do find a niche where they are useful, you can buy the top tier of deadspace remote repair modules for them for just a few million ISK.

Tech 1 cruiser logi ships are extremely useful in PVP as they don't have the limitations the frigate ones have.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Penumbra Sonolum
#18 - 2014-12-07 03:56:59 UTC
Quote:
My first experience with flying logi was with a few corp members who were running level 4 missions. It was a very stress free way to get used to things like paying attention to the watchlist and managing the reppers in a way that doesn't kill your cap. It's not a good way to train for flying in a pvp fleet, but it's an easy way to ease into the idea.


Yeah, that was what I had in mind when I talked about PvE to learn a little about how to do stuff.

Quote:
If you're sticking with small fleets where you are the only logi (or one of a very few) you might want to fly a Scythe or Exequror. With enough training time and proper fitting, they can be much more independent. The Osprey and Augoror are better suited for fleets with multiple logi ships who can help each other with capacitor boosts.


I think I will focus on the Exequror to begin with, I imagine that Logi pilots choose one of which kind? Like one for multiple logi and one for solo?

Quote:
Very few human beings are able to effectively command full 250 man fleets. Which is why as a logistics pilot you always keep the fc alive. No one may be able to replace him.


I imagine that the FC would fly a very tanky ship then? Actually I hope so.
I believe that I should always have him on the watchlist then.

Quote:
Just an FYI. The tech 1 logistics frigates are pretty poor. They aren't *totally* worthless, but they are very fragile, do not have a large degree of remote repping power, and are extremely difficult to fit effectively. I tried designing a fleet doctrine for my corporation that was going to use them, and it did not work.

Notably, they really struggle to fit an afterburner, a full rack of remote reppers and any sort of tank, but remove the afterburner and they are sitting ducks. A microwarpdrive is even harder to fit, and is murder on your capacitor (making you less able to sustain remote repairs) and your signature radius (making you easier to track).

This weakness has one positive side effect, however - the specialist modules that only frigate logi use are *extremely* cheap, so if you do find a niche where they are useful, you can buy the top tier of deadspace remote repair modules for them for just a few million ISK.

Tech 1 cruiser logi ships are extremely useful in PVP as they don't have the limitations the frigate ones have.


I think I should rush for the Cruisers then instead of training the frigate racial skills more then the necessary, I mean, it will just take some hours and I believe that I can afford to lose a Cruiser without much fuss.
Because for me the big problem is that I want to learn and get used to work as a Logi, it would be difficult if I would happen to be killed instantly too much with the frigates ships since they are so fragile. Though I probably will be killed instantly with the Cruisers nonetheless.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#19 - 2014-12-07 04:12:49 UTC
Penumbra Sonolum wrote:


What can I say? I like to be a force multiplier! Big smile


A rookie after my own heart!


Penumbra Sonolum wrote:


I think I should rush for the Cruisers then instead of training the frigate racial skills more then the necessary, I mean, it will just take some hours and I believe that I can afford to lose a Cruiser without much fuss.
Because for me the big problem is that I want to learn and get used to work as a Logi, it would be difficult if I would happen to be killed instantly too much with the frigates ships since they are so fragile. Though I probably will be killed instantly with the Cruisers nonetheless.


Don't get too turned off from logi frigs. The biggest drawback they have for a newer player is that they're tricky little cats to fit up. I personally consider them to be a step above T1 cruiser logi in terms of difficulty, but only because of the very, very tight fitting requirements. If you're flying around with a frig gang, though, a logi frig is an incredibly nice little buddy to have. Having the frig skills can also be useful because, sometimes, even a dedicated logi just wants to go out and shoot something.

Since you're in an NPC corp, you'll find it a bit more difficult to find PvP to logi for, but it isn't impossible. Check out the Public Roam Channels that J'Poll (a poster above in this thread) has in her sig, and don't be afraid to speak up before one of their roams, and I would guess that they'd be quite happy to take an extra logi along.

Barring public roam groups, you'll probably need to look into joining a player corp sooner than later. Look for a group in lowsec or nulsec to get the most chances to really grow your logi skills.

The Recruitment board is at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=265 I don't know too many out there who wouldn't be willing to take a new logi under their wing.

Good luck to you!

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-12-07 04:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Amyclas Amatin
A something awful forums account is also the easiest way to join the CFC where we take really good care of OUR rookies and get them straight into massive-scale fights.

Brave newbies recruits publicly, if you're into that kind of thing.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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