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Industry Teams - Current Plans

First post First post
Author
Kym Sorenson
Lone Wolf Union
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#141 - 2014-12-06 14:19:55 UTC
So because something's only being used by a small community of the game, it's getting removed? When will titans be removed, then? Just because it's not used by everybody doesn't mean it should go. It's been a great boost to nullsec industry and helped us compete with highsec along with the other Crius changes. Plus, bidding is fun! Don't remove it, just leave it alone!
Tryaz
Improvised Tactics
#142 - 2014-12-06 14:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
What the Hell! I haven't even had a chance to try these out yet! Just because not everyone is madly spamming them doesn't mean they need removed surely? Why the cold feet CCP?
ECM fucks me over less than 10% of the time when I pvp but I don't see you removing that P

Oh well, I don't really know enough to comment on teams, just annoyed at the removal of a feature that intrigued me.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden

Tryaz
Improvised Tactics
#143 - 2014-12-06 14:55:09 UTC
Also, under 10% seems fairly high to me. I don't hear you saying under 10% of miners, or under 10% of pvpers, use links so we're removing them from the game.

PS Please remove links

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#144 - 2014-12-06 15:14:56 UTC
If it is not working, why bother removing it before having an alternate plan? Shocked

I smell rats. No company spends money and resources undoing what does nothing...

...unless that thing is actually doing something which the company deems so potentially troublesome that they'll rather remove the feature completely before anyone notices what it does.

What's broken with teams, CCP? Maybe there's a gold-doubling glitch...? Maybe something related to EVEs' troublesome relation to integers going beyond a threshold and becoming negative integers? (Real case: it used to be possible to disrupt tracking and effective range below 0 thus becoming negative tracking and distance and that gave the ships 100% tracking over infinite distance...)

That, or some developers have a fragile ego and can't stand to see their brainchild flop day after day after day... P
Haffsol
#145 - 2014-12-06 16:16:59 UTC
Teams are a childbirth of a horrible mind. Don't just remove them, let them burn in a fire.

Kudos CCP ;)
CraZeDnz
Care for Kids
#146 - 2014-12-06 17:06:08 UTC
Used them once, never used again, Couldn't see a point to them, and the advantage was neg-liable with most jobs.

Sturmwolke
#147 - 2014-12-06 17:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Good to see it gone. It overcomplicated manufacturing/research that I can honestly say that it wasn't worth the time and effort to bid and/or move towards the successful ones. Waste of time when you take into account the transportation overheads. Neither would you want to stay at the same spot since everything shifts. It's a fail mechanic when put into practice.

It is also a rather lopsided mechanic that favor economies of scale, rather than small and medium enterprises. If you want REAL players to populate this game, you have to give them a reason to exist and be competitive. Think of a mechanic that drives this. Geo location matters very little as the universe will auto-adjust like the market. "Forcing" a geo-location lock (i.e. teams) was possibly the wrong approach in the first place. What may (or may not) work is encouraging agglomeration as organically as possible via market forces i.e. prices get cheaper the more you manufacture the same stuffs in a particular system **. This is attributed by the streamlining of the supply chain by support industries - just like in RL. At a certain point in the scale, it can even be expanded into area or region e.g. the Mobit constellation is known as a famous region for jump freighter construction where a lot of jump freighters gets built - just like in RL e.g. vineyards region in France.

On a different track, while you're still at it, please consider adding a materials tab* to the industry UI. This is a major sore point to possibly most industrialist as you have to hunt down your stocks in the assets list before making any decisions - even before Crius. That's 2 different windows you have to use to access the information 1. Industry 2. Assets/Corp Assets. Since most of the industry work flows have been consolidated under Industry in Crius, it begs the question why this hasn't already been implemented?

* Its aim is to provide an overview of ALL valid manufacturing materials (even a packed ship) and should also be fully customizable to allow players to include/exclude these items if needed.

** do everything in Jita? well up to a point when the scale tips and negative costs sets it, denoting resource scarcity and overcrowding of the support industries. The volume of this container i.e. manufacturing capacity of a whole system can be scaled accordingly towards sec status, with smallest = 1.0, biggest=0.0. More than likely, several centers will spring up organically depending on demand and whatsover other intangible factors that goes into it. Simpler and more intuitive.
corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-12-06 18:45:20 UTC
Putting it too the level where its beneficial for all ment alot of invested time. So ccp could let it sit there and fade out. Or act in line of gheir current measures, like clone penalty , take it out, and out it back once its at the level that fits cco and players standards.

That time , aftehr a large indie patch, and with the upcmming null sec occupncy levels, isnt available now. So the removal, and the reshuffling of resources that get freed up, makes alot of sense.

Its a disccison made out of choice between stuff that can be done with limited resources. Not one that said the team idea sucks, as ccp stands behind that.
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
P I R A T
#149 - 2014-12-06 18:49:45 UTC
Just convert it to mercenary teams. Roll

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
#150 - 2014-12-06 18:53:05 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Putting it too the level where its beneficial for all ment alot of invested time. So ccp could let it sit there and fade out. Or act in line of gheir current measures, like clone penalty , take it out, and out it back once its at the level that fits cco and players standards.

That time , aftehr a large indie patch, and with the upcmming null sec occupncy levels, isnt available now. So the removal, and the reshuffling of resources that get freed up, makes alot of sense.

Its a disccison made out of choice between stuff that can be done with limited resources. Not one that said the team idea sucks, as ccp stands behind that.

Sorry, I do not buy for one minute that it's even remotely similar to clone penalties. No one benefits from clone charges. It is only a negative effect that when used, becomes neutral. Teams have a benefit. There are industrial types around new eden who are making use of them already and they have a positive effect for them. Removing them because they're "not being used enough" is an absurd reason from where I'm sat.

As others have said, what about all the other things that are rarely used also. Should they also be removed? Should ships that aren't used be removed while they're balanced? No and I don't think anyone would agree with that. Leave them in until a better solution is found. There will be some people who like them as they are.
Juli Paris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-12-06 18:59:04 UTC
EMT Holding wrote:
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Putting it too the level where its beneficial for all ment alot of invested time. So ccp could let it sit there and fade out. Or act in line of gheir current measures, like clone penalty , take it out, and out it back once its at the level that fits cco and players standards.

That time , aftehr a large indie patch, and with the upcmming null sec occupncy levels, isnt available now. So the removal, and the reshuffling of resources that get freed up, makes alot of sense.

Its a disccison made out of choice between stuff that can be done with limited resources. Not one that said the team idea sucks, as ccp stands behind that.

Sorry, I do not buy for one minute that it's even remotely similar to clone penalties. No one benefits from clone charges. It is only a negative effect that when used, becomes neutral. Teams have a benefit. There are industrial types around new eden who are making use of them already and they have a positive effect for them. Removing them because they're "not being used enough" is an absurd reason from where I'm sat.

As others have said, what about all the other things that are rarely used also. Should they also be removed? Should ships that aren't used be removed while they're balanced? No and I don't think anyone would agree with that. Leave them in until a better solution is found. There will be some people who like them as they are.




I find this argument both absurd (for the above reasons quoted), and, disappointing, because it came from a CSM.

Honestly, get off teams, they are lovely.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2014-12-06 20:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Putting it too the level where its beneficial for all ment alot of invested time. So ccp could let it sit there and fade out. Or act in line of gheir current measures, like clone penalty , take it out, and out it back once its at the level that fits cco and players standards.

That time , aftehr a large indie patch, and with the upcmming null sec occupncy levels, isnt available now. So the removal, and the reshuffling of resources that get freed up, makes alot of sense.

Its a disccison made out of choice between stuff that can be done with limited resources. Not one that said the team idea sucks, as ccp stands behind that.

Limited resources? Limited resources?! My gosh! Scrap the NES and CCP has more than enough resources to introduce a fully developed feature to the game. What's next going to be introduced to the game in a beta status not labeled as beta? New POS system? New Sov/System Claim system?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2014-12-06 21:44:07 UTC
So whats happenign to the "Push/Pull effect" of industry that Crius was all about. Now we just have a push effect with Index and no more pull effects to draw people to a place.

Teams are pretty amazing, I dont do that much high sec industry as its mostly in nullsec, But when ever I build in highsec I always looked where what teams are available and what the index is, then compare that to the range from jita and find a nice spot to build. And not beeing afraid to move around when better teams show up in a system with lower Index.

People say its hard to move industry around? Is it really? You use up the minerals and move your bpo's. BPO's are easy to move. The minerals are a pain yes, but you just need to import new ones and use up the old ones at your old location.

Now in the new system all i get to look at is index and that isnt nearly as fun or interesting
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#154 - 2014-12-06 23:45:09 UTC
Great. I've been ignoring teams anyway.

YK
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#155 - 2014-12-07 00:53:27 UTC
Firvain wrote:
So whats happenign to the "Push/Pull effect" of industry that Crius was all about. Now we just have a push effect with Index and no more pull effects to draw people to a place.

Teams are pretty amazing, I dont do that much high sec industry as its mostly in nullsec, But when ever I build in highsec I always looked where what teams are available and what the index is, then compare that to the range from jita and find a nice spot to build. And not beeing afraid to move around when better teams show up in a system with lower Index.

People say its hard to move industry around? Is it really? You use up the minerals and move your bpo's. BPO's are easy to move. The minerals are a pain yes, but you just need to import new ones and use up the old ones at your old location.

Now in the new system all i get to look at is index and that isnt nearly as fun or interesting


The problem is that in high-sec, teams completely nullify the cost index "push" if you take advantage of station modifiers. For example, you can build as much as you want in Nonni and the cost index will never rise above 4%. Ever. And that's just one example. In contrast, if you build in a stationless system, your cost index quickly rises to 6, 7, eventually 8%.

A 4% cost index turns into a 1% cost index if you have a -2.5% team, which is the worst-case scenario. Teams make it so that large-scale, informed, industrialists don't have to worry about cost index. I'm turning over about 40bil of raw->finished materials per day out of a single POS, at a good profit, and I'm not even running at my peak. That's broken.

A "pull effect" is not the same thing as the complete elimination of any "push effect".
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#156 - 2014-12-07 01:59:08 UTC
I like the idea but never used them.

For me to want to use them I would want them to be more like the manufacturing, research and copying slots. Have each system with a station have unlimited teams in that station but the price to use them go up and effectiveness go down as more and more are employed.

POSs could have a module added that had a certain type or number of team for pilots living out of POSs to use.

TL;DR Treat teams like industry slots and have them cost more based on usage.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#157 - 2014-12-07 03:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Sad to see them go, and I definitely want them back once they are iterated upon.

Teams are an excellent source of intel on what is being built and where - information that starts fights in all areas of space. They are also a way of seeding false intel - if you want a rival's strategically important system to be attacked but can't do it yourself, just put a Titan team in there, then seed intel that they are building Titans there.

I will miss using the teams interface to search for good highsec POSes to ransom.



Edit: One issue with them is that the % production time modifiers are underpowered, and the % material cost modifiers are comparitively very powerful. And production is too fast in New Eden in general now so it's not advisable to just dial up the numbers on the % production time teams.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#158 - 2014-12-07 04:09:32 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Hello Industrialists,

As part of the Crius Industry release, a feature was added that most of you are probably familiar with called Teams. This feature allows you to hire teams of specialist NPC workers to boost your industry jobs for a price.

Since then we have been closely tracking all related Industry metrics and dials and it is apparent to us that since going live usage of the feature on TQ has been very low relative to its goals (with single figure percentage use in manufacturing jobs and near nonexistent use in research). So while we definitely think that the core idea behind the feature is a good one and brings value to the game and you, in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity. We have done some initial investigation and It is clear that bringing it up to the quality standards you should expect of us is a large project. A project which at this time is not the highest priority for us against some of the other things we are looking at. Given this, we believe the right thing for EVE and it’s players is to remove the Teams feature from the game over the next few months until such a time as we can properly revisit it.

Our rollout plan for this would be to disable the seeding of new teams by the end of 2014, and to disable the UI features in one of the first releases of 2015. That being said, we want your input and feedback on what is ultimately a fairly unprecedented course of action for us. While we feel we have done our due diligence additional context from you is always appreciated.

Thanks for reading,
Team Game of Drones



Hi CCP RubberBAND,

I am actually familiar with the Teams system, but had significant problems using the feature (UI issues, difficulty telling how much you were actually bidding for a team and last second sniping were commonplace). Moreover, the system itself was a little too cumbersome to identify teams which would actually suit the jobs I would be performing, which could take extensive lengths of time in itself.

I'm sorry that the feature didn't work out (it did appear like a great concept on paper), but I'm glad you and your team are able to take the brave step to accept that not every brilliant idea comes to fruition as, perhaps, you had anticipated. But hey, every development cycle will have its ups and downs.

I must say I'm very happy with EvE's development of late. Since the new system of 6-weekly release schedules the game is taking a significant turn in both its focus, and in what is being achieved. The game feels more dynamic and like somebody actually cares about where's it's headed. You're all doing a great job of making EvE an exciting and ever-evolving universe to be our playground. I'm telling you this now because I certainly didn't think this way a few years back in the dark days of Incarna.

Thanks CCP!
Almethea
Trans Stellar Express
#159 - 2014-12-07 07:57:16 UTC
>>> LoL <<<

so much time spent on revamp and add new features in the industry process.
Finally few month later...you plan to only keep the unlimited slots.

good work! keep wasting time!

there's so many thing to fix in eve.... and they fix forum ! GJ! but ok i like it !

CCP Fozzie : AFK cloaking, however, is an entirely social form of power

Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#160 - 2014-12-07 08:52:23 UTC
Good riddance.

Glad they're on their way out.
Unneeded complexity to an already complex feature.

Hope the teams don't get hid by an airlock on their way out.Twisted