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CCP Mankiller: About PBR

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#41 - 2014-12-06 02:40:56 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good, and each ship will at least meet our designers' minimum standard for that ship at release, while many will look much better.

For most of us, "minimum standard" means at least on par with the current offering.

Quote:
That doesn't mean that your favorite ship might not have lost an element of its look to which you've become attached. What it does mean is that you should offer your feelings about it, as you have here, and we'll iterate on ships as we can.

I have. We have. But since you extended the offer, here's a re-cap:
• Mordus Legion ships should be matte black.
• Serpentis ships should be a semi-gloss black, not silver. Example. OK, perhaps not quite like this...
• Sansha ships should have the rainbow sheen currently present.
• Blood Raiders need a new colour scheme to accompany the crimson 'splatter' (black, crimson red and red running lights).
• Angels should have this colour scheme.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-12-06 02:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Inir Ishtori
Unezka Turigahl wrote:

Gallente seems to be the main complaint from people. But taking a look on the test server again and they generally seem ok now. A little overboard on the chrome still on some ships. And the Vexor/Ishtar model looks really nasty. Globby normal map, and some surfaces that used to appear smooth now appear faceted/low poly. Maybe that's why I dislike like the Ishtar so much. Because the Eos and Sin actually don't look too bad.

Some of the pirate ships are upsetting people. Guess that's the main issue now.



Ehh.. I'm on the opposite. The T1 lineup looks glorious right now. Chrome is good. In fact, chrome should be to Gallente what gold plating is to Amarr, making Gallente ships look more super funky high-tech with an alien touch and less like your typical sci-fi military ship you'd see at the Caldari side with their typical the dull paints. After all, Gallente is a Republic on top of it all, with some fairly wild fashions too, where certain aestethics are valued due to their representative role. Also, in my opinion, Vexor looks great right now - for the first time after all these years since the colour scheme debacle after the Trinity update.

Now about Gallente T2 lineup - yep, some stuff looks bad. Roden is okay - Enyo looks amazing(needs T2 parts ofc), Phobos and Lachesis are okay but need more chrome, though -, Ishkur looks really great, Sin is kinda okay, could be worse. The rest goes from sad to bad - every single Duvolle ship the former, Creodron with Ishtar and Imicus the latter.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#43 - 2014-12-06 02:43:41 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Your comments were exactly the kind of thing that we need at this point. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write them out in such detail.

Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-12-06 02:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Inir Ishtori
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Your comments were exactly the kind of thing that we need at this point. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write them out in such detail.

Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now...

They seem to be working instead of talking. Brutix was cleaned up a bit, Abaddon got some better hull structure, Myrmidon looks different, slightly cleaner. Sadly they also seem to have reduced some chrome amount or shine on a couple of ships Sad
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2014-12-06 04:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now...


Actively interacting with the community is not a primary job responsibility for the EVE dev team (except, of course, for our hard-working community team.) It's entirely on each of us how much or little we participate, though it's made clear to us that we're welcome if we would like to. So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#46 - 2014-12-06 05:13:15 UTC
Thanks for the reply. Can you talk about the way sun ray effects only show up when the sun is in camera? Is it a defect or by design for now.

Thanks

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#47 - 2014-12-06 05:58:51 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Actively interacting with the community is not a primary job responsibility for the EVE dev team (except, of course, for our hard-working community team.) It's entirely on each of us how much or little we participate, though it's made clear to us that we're welcome if we would like to. So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening.

Ditto.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#48 - 2014-12-06 06:34:36 UTC
CCP Huskarl wrote:
Hey pilots

I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.

However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I´m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.

We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.

07 Huskarl



All of this will be largely irrelevant for a lot of people.


Many players will be running with post-processing off to negate the annoying and nauseating effect of the new UI windows, as this is the only way to get the UI looking anything like it is now. This will inevitably reduce the quality of the shaders and rendering applied.

You may want to have a chat with your mates in the "crappy new UI" team to have them introduce an option to stick with current window scheme, so that all your work here is not made irrelevant, pointless and a complete waste of time.

Good luck with that, they have ignored everyone else.




CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#49 - 2014-12-06 07:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Petra Hakaari
CCP Darwin wrote:
CCP Huskarl, in his post, describes a number of details of ship look that he'd probably characterize as minor issues that he'd like to revisit over time after PBR's release. You largely agree on what the issues are, but you'd characterize them as game-breaking.

Well, not game breaking, but really disappointing, i think we all rather see a finished product than some half done job, we've had bad experiences in the past regarding this type os strategy.


CCP Darwin wrote:
That doesn't mean that your favorite ship might not have lost an element of its look to which you've become attached. What it does mean is that you should offer your feelings about it, as you have here, and we'll iterate on ships as we can.

Phantasm: has lost the detail, the oil gleamy aura is gone...
Paladin: so mux wax, where did the red go?
Crow: why all the black?
Windicator: its not black anymore :S
Orthrus: has lost all its detail.

Basically the general feeling we get from all the ships (even the t1 amarr ships, basically) is that the textures are blurred, waxed and lost detail.

If you want positive and specific feedback, you can read my opinion on just some ships on #1.


CCP Darwin wrote:
However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good,

http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c


CCP Darwin wrote:
Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive.

My man, have you been reading the same posts i have? Shocked
Because all i read is "Yeah it might look good when you solve this and this and that and that other too".

And what most people is saying is also true, we here in the forums are just a bunch, and the ones among us in the forum that actually get into sisi its even smaller, so we are just saying that to spare the shitstorm that might come to the forums we humbly think that you should put PBR on hold until you get the job right.

Because tities .
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#50 - 2014-12-06 09:40:18 UTC
Quote:
http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

PBR is an improvement, ask any 3D artist and game grapic designer out there.
http://www.pbrt.org/

But it needs some textures, and they have to be reworked. And they were, and will be. They were, and they will be, its not like with your "AAA" titles, where you can just sit and cry because artist took the money and company fired him already or you wait for community update with MOD if game is modable.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#51 - 2014-12-06 09:50:38 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
PBR is an improvement, ask any 3D artist and game grapic designer out there.

I never said otherwise...


Bagrat Skalski wrote:
But it needs some textures, and they have to be reworked.

Thats all I'm saying, they need to be reworked before delivering the product.

Because tities .
Miyaki Ayu Chan
Beyond All Limits
#52 - 2014-12-06 10:32:48 UTC
Dear CCP,

I am concerned about that you bring out the Update with those "new Graphics" on Tranquality Server on the 9th December with the actual graphics changes.

The reason for it is what I can explain in short examples and I think I speak for the most Players.


Beside of the Amarr Ships, which were highly rendered with the new Graphics and were almost perfectly done, the Minmatar Ships still look kinda like the same as before.

This was something I just wanted to mention.

Gallente Ships are almost perfect, but some Ships like the Kronos and stuffs still need some hard work.



To the Problems:


- Gallente Ships look quite better, but have rust on Ships.
Why the hell should there be rust on the Ships, when those are built with the finest Ore's of the Universe, of which some of them are not even available on earth?

When EVE is Real,
this can't be real.


- Caldari Ships have received a BIG DOWNGRADE in the Graphics.
I beg you to just for a good example compare the Scorpion Navy Issue on Singularity and Tranquality and tell me, which of them looks Graphics updated the new Shine?

Definetely the old Shader.



So, dear CCP:


Please remove the Rust on the Ships because it's ugly, dumb and definetely not real.

Second and primarly complain and biggest mistake what CCP could do:

Don't update the Caldari Ships like this.

Get their old Shaders back or do it right.

How it is right now is a big Downgrade.


I'm sure you will hear many complains about that.



Well,
Best Regards,

Miyaki Ayu Chan o/
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-12-06 12:23:40 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening.

But that's what it can feel like when pretty much half the Test Server Feedback forum is telling you to drop PBR from Rhea and delay its release until work on the textures and shaders has allowed ships to reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#54 - 2014-12-06 12:48:17 UTC
Quote:
reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences.

Just no. That is not the point of applying PBR.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#55 - 2014-12-06 13:27:34 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences.

Just no. That is not the point of applying PBR.

What he says can be udnerstood that he wants the ships to look the same way, and I think that's what you udnerstood, but what i think the man tries to say is the, at least, same level or quality, which they, clearly, don't have right now on sisi.

Because tities .
Claire Gally
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-12-06 13:30:30 UTC
CCP Huskarl wrote:
I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE.


No, just no. That's the theory about PBR, it is supposed to give a much better and more realistic overall lighting IF it's well-integrated. Which is not the case.

Launch up Sisi and watch for yourself.

In the meantime, PLEASE do NOT deploy that thing on TQ. Not until it looks good.

cheers,
Claire
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#57 - 2014-12-06 14:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
No, just no. That's the theory about PBR, it is supposed to give a much better and more realistic overall lighting IF it's well-integrated. Which is not the case.


It is well integrated, the issue is with certain ships and materials, but I think that after some tweaks they made until now even the worst looking textures on the ships in PBR look acceptable, even sansha without "oil spill". I say, bring it on, don't wait because of few ships that look different or not so shiny as they were.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#58 - 2014-12-06 15:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
I think it's a bit of a shame how everyone voicing their concerns here are being brushed off as emotional about a few ships, or not providing sufficient technical detail for CCP to care taking the feedback into account. I wonder why anyone is here in this test server feedback forum in the first place, maybe perhaps they care about the game.

All I know is that come December 9th, this useless undetailed "non-specific" feedback is going to be all over GD, and corp ceos and vets alike will be running damage control with all the new members of eve to try and explain why CCP felt this graphic downgrade was justified.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#59 - 2014-12-06 15:12:52 UTC
doublepost
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#60 - 2014-12-06 15:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
CCP Huskarl wrote:
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. l

Well machariel for example is very ugly using this new method, it's completely wrong in color.
So i hope machariel will get same skin color / skin as on TQ.
Cool

But otherwise oracle looks amazing with that gold texture, although paladin doesn't have as shiny / pure gold as oracle.