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Anti-ganking Providence fit with analysis

Author
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1 - 2014-12-05 23:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Fit:

Providence
Corpii A-type adaptive nano plating
Corpii A-type thermic plating
Corpii A-type kinetic plating

Cost of modules: ~70m (a more expensive 270m variation is with triple adaptive plating)

Cargo: 543k m3

EHP with all V no boosts no implants
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
300 / 360 / 340 / 240

EHP with Command Ship booster:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
380/ 430/ 396/ 303

EHP with Command Ship booster and HG slaves:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
540 / 626 / 568 / 411 (!!!)

Why it works: relatively cheap, large cargo, higher resist to typical gank ships.
Why it works really well: RISK of gank failure.

Here's the kicker though:

The key point is gankers do not know whether you have slave implant set or armor resist gang link . So their worst case scenario is 600k ehp plus a potential cloaked guardian or just a guardian sitting on a gate (ie they need to gather a very large or somewhat expensive fleet to have a guaranteed kill). So it's a risky proposition ganking a provi that is fit like this. Now that ISBOX broadcasting is banned it's also less likely to see 50 catalyst fleets.

Basically when they see any of these, even autopiloting. It could be a trap.

Also note that kin/therm resists are 77 / 74 for slaves/booster, which means that any incoming armor reps are multiplied ~4x. So a single guardian or nestor can rep 4-5k EHP per second, meaning it can counter 7-10 catalysts in addition to having high base EHP.

So effectively this fit presents gankers with a high risk of failure.

Note - a cloaky guardian with 2 Medium Targeting Systems Stabilizer II s can decloak in 7.3s, seems like a decent potential trap in 0.5 (20-25s for CONCORD to show up).
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-12-06 00:14:43 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Fit:

Providence
Corpii A-type adaptive nano plating
Corpii A-type thermic plating
Corpii A-type kinetic plating

Cost of modules: ~100m

Cargo: 543k m3

EHP with all V no boosts no implants
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
300 / 360 / 340 / 240

EHP with Command Ship booster:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
380/ 430/ 396/ 303

EHP with Command Ship booster and HG slaves:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
540 / 626 / 568 / 411 (!!!)

Why it works: relatively cheap, large cargo, higher resist to typical gank ships.
Why it works really well: RISK of gank failure.

Here's the kicker though:

The most important part is though that is gankers do not know whether you have slaves or booster. So their worst case scenario is 600k ehp plus a potential cloaked guardian (ie this freighter practically can't be destroyed). So it's a risky proposition ganking a provi that is fit like this.

Basically when they see any of these, even autopiloting. It could be a trap.

Also note that kin/therm resists are 77 / 74 for slaves/booster, which means that any incoming armor reps are multiplied ~4x. So a single guardian or nestor can rep 4-5k EHP per second, meaning it can counter 7-10 catalysts in addition to having high base EHP.

So effectively this fit presents gankers with a high risk of failure.


Dont ever say "Can't be destroyed" because that is when someone forms up a 40 man tornado gank squad just to prove you wrong.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#3 - 2014-12-06 00:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Fit:

Providence
Corpii A-type adaptive nano plating
Corpii A-type thermic plating
Corpii A-type kinetic plating

Cost of modules: ~100m

Cargo: 543k m3

EHP with all V no boosts no implants
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
300 / 360 / 340 / 240

EHP with Command Ship booster:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
380/ 430/ 396/ 303

EHP with Command Ship booster and HG slaves:
EM / THERM / KIN / EXP
540 / 626 / 568 / 411 (!!!)

Why it works: relatively cheap, large cargo, higher resist to typical gank ships.
Why it works really well: RISK of gank failure.

Here's the kicker though:

The most important part is though that is gankers do not know whether you have slaves or booster. So their worst case scenario is 600k ehp plus a potential cloaked guardian (ie this freighter practically can't be destroyed). So it's a risky proposition ganking a provi that is fit like this.

Basically when they see any of these, even autopiloting. It could be a trap.

Also note that kin/therm resists are 77 / 74 for slaves/booster, which means that any incoming armor reps are multiplied ~4x. So a single guardian or nestor can rep 4-5k EHP per second, meaning it can counter 7-10 catalysts in addition to having high base EHP.

So effectively this fit presents gankers with a high risk of failure.


Dont ever say "Can't be destroyed" because that is when someone forms up a 40 man tornado gank squad just to prove you wrong.



Their loss :) Both time and ISK-wise. Asymmetric time attrition warfare is the best kind :)
Paranoid Loyd
#4 - 2014-12-06 00:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
You realize the cloaked Guardian has a 10 tick delay after decloaking right? Your freighter will be dead by then.

But please do try this, especially with slaves, I would love to see some more loss mails out of you.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#5 - 2014-12-06 00:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You realize the cloaked Guardian has a 10 tick delay after decloaking right? Your freighter will be dead by then.

But please do try this, especially with slaves, I would love to see some more loss mails out of you.


Your point about Guardian is correct but in 0.5 you still get 10-15sec of reps. Could be an ECM Widow / whatever. Key point remains true that your risk of failure goes up.

You can also decloak a few seconds in advance once you see the gank fleet incoming.

Btw your isk efficiency against my hauling business is 0.3% you are pretty much an annoying fly at best to my wallet anyway. This makes me think that CODE's actual impact on EVE in terms of GDP is likely negligible and is mostly psychological.
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2014-12-06 01:40:07 UTC
First off, while I enjoy the content they provide, I have no affiliation with CODE.

You are over complicating things, just use a webbing alt and forgo all that rigmarole.

Glad you finally realized that CODE's impact is not a problem like you made it out to be originally, now don't you feel foolish for making such a scene about something that is more or less insignificant in the grand scheme of things?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#7 - 2014-12-06 02:09:26 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
First off, while I enjoy the content they provide, I have no affiliation with CODE.

You are over complicating things, just use a webbing alt and forgo all that rigmarole.

Glad you finally realized that CODE's impact is not a problem like you made it out to be originally, now don't you feel foolish for making such a scene about something that is more or less insignificant in the grand scheme of things?


Sure, i let them annoy me way more than i should have. I still have no doubts that they intentionally annoy people as a part of their MO but you just have to be impervious to it.
Paranoid Loyd
#8 - 2014-12-06 02:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Sun Tzu wrote:
If your opponent is angry, annoy him.
An angry opponent is more likely to make foolish mistakes.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#9 - 2014-12-06 02:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Paranoid Loyd wrote:


You are over complicating things, just use a webbing alt and forgo all that rigmarole.



I think you missed my point that this fit effectively has a passive threat of gank failure potentially allowing you to autopilot.

It also allows other people to rep you more efficiently.

If everyone starts fitting their freighters like that you might see permanent gangs of guardians as well as links/boosters services in uedama/niarja. This could be a nice addition to the present anti-ganking arsenal.

I'm not saying this is a panacea or that the fit is amazing or whatever. It's just a fit with some ideas of why it could work.
Paranoid Loyd
#10 - 2014-12-06 02:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
What is the point of autopiloting if you are at the keyboard making sure you don't get ganked? Using a webbing alt will get you there faster and is much safer.

While you have realized that CODE is not as significant as you once thought, you still don't seem to understand they could not care less about isk efficiency, why would you when people keep throwing isk at you to keep them entertained. Killing you again even if it costs multiple billions would only make them stronger as the content is what the people who donate crave and would easily generate more than it cost them to gank you.

Dream Five wrote:
If everyone starts fitting their freighters like that you might see permanent gangs of guardians as well as links/boosters services in uedama/niarja. This could be a nice addition to the present anti-ganking arsenal.

Are you familiar with the term "herding cats?" Also, what present anti-ganking arsenal?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#11 - 2014-12-06 02:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
What is the point of autopiloting if you are at the keyboard making sure you don't get ganked? Using a webbing alt will get you there faster and is much safer.

While you have realized that CODE is not as significant as you once thought, you still don't seem to understand they could not care less about isk efficiency, why would you when people keep throwing isk at you to keep them entertained. Killing you again even if it costs multiple billions would only make them stronger as the content is what the people who donate crave and would easily generate more than it cost them to gank you.

Dream Five wrote:
If everyone starts fitting their freighters like that you might see permanent gangs of guardians as well as links/boosters services in uedama/niarja. This could be a nice addition to the present anti-ganking arsenal.

Are you familiar with the term "herding cats?"



I think you are still missing the point that the threat is passive. I could be there or i could be AFK.
I could have slaves/gang links or not.

They just don't know. So they don't know how many ships to bring to make it a sure kill.

Increased probability of failure = increased long-term gank costs.

Re: "herding cats", you might be right, but i figured i'd throw it out there anyway.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#12 - 2014-12-06 03:26:45 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
What is the point of autopiloting if you are at the keyboard making sure you don't get ganked? Using a webbing alt will get you there faster and is much safer.

While you have realized that CODE is not as significant as you once thought, you still don't seem to understand they could not care less about isk efficiency, why would you when people keep throwing isk at you to keep them entertained. Killing you again even if it costs multiple billions would only make them stronger as the content is what the people who donate crave and would easily generate more than it cost them to gank you.

Dream Five wrote:
If everyone starts fitting their freighters like that you might see permanent gangs of guardians as well as links/boosters services in uedama/niarja. This could be a nice addition to the present anti-ganking arsenal.

Are you familiar with the term "herding cats?"



I think you are still missing the point that the threat is passive. I could be there or i could be AFK.
I could have slaves/gang links or not.

They just don't know. So they don't know how many ships to bring to make it a sure kill.

Increased probability of failure = increased long-term gank costs.

Re: "herding cats", you might be right, but i figured i'd throw it out there anyway.


You're missing his point. Even if they don't know, they don't care about 'increased long-term gank costs' they will form a 100 man Catalyst gang to gank you even if they only needed 50 if they really wanted to.
Paranoid Loyd
#13 - 2014-12-06 03:48:46 UTC
You are wasting your time thinking about how to make them fail, the reality is if you do that they win. Whether or not you succeed in accomplishing making them fail, you still wasted all that time for something that is insignificant in the grand scope of things.

Your understanding of ganking is not there, while theirs is, not only that, they also know how to haul as well if not better than you.

If you want to screw them over you need to learn how to gank to equal the equation out. Roll an alt and join them, learn to gank and that will give you the answer of how to screw them over. Problem is you will enjoy yourself. Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#14 - 2014-12-06 04:16:40 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You are wasting your time thinking about how to make them fail, the reality is if you do that they win. Whether or not you succeed in accomplishing making them fail, you still wasted all that time for something that is insignificant in the grand scope of things.

Your understanding of ganking is not there, while theirs is, not only that, they also know how to haul as well if not better than you.

If you want to screw them over you need to learn how to gank to equal the equation out. Roll an alt and join them, learn to gank and that will give you the answer of how to screw them over. Problem is you will enjoy yourself. Blink


Can't join them :) I'm an anti-code crusading carebear and bot-aspirant, remember?
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#15 - 2014-12-06 04:19:17 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
What is the point of autopiloting if you are at the keyboard making sure you don't get ganked? Using a webbing alt will get you there faster and is much safer.

While you have realized that CODE is not as significant as you once thought, you still don't seem to understand they could not care less about isk efficiency, why would you when people keep throwing isk at you to keep them entertained. Killing you again even if it costs multiple billions would only make them stronger as the content is what the people who donate crave and would easily generate more than it cost them to gank you.

Dream Five wrote:
If everyone starts fitting their freighters like that you might see permanent gangs of guardians as well as links/boosters services in uedama/niarja. This could be a nice addition to the present anti-ganking arsenal.

Are you familiar with the term "herding cats?"



I think you are still missing the point that the threat is passive. I could be there or i could be AFK.
I could have slaves/gang links or not.

They just don't know. So they don't know how many ships to bring to make it a sure kill.

Increased probability of failure = increased long-term gank costs.

Re: "herding cats", you might be right, but i figured i'd throw it out there anyway.


You're missing his point. Even if they don't know, they don't care about 'increased long-term gank costs' they will form a 100 man Catalyst gang to gank you even if they only needed 50 if they really wanted to.



You could be right, but I don't believe that

a) they can form even a 50 man fleet often enough.
b) 100 man for freighter ganking is even realistically possible more than once a week for an hour
c) the ISK losses don't matter to them.
Paranoid Loyd
#16 - 2014-12-06 04:23:50 UTC
Let me introduce you to the Brutix, Talos and Tornado.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Paranoid Loyd
#17 - 2014-12-06 04:27:12 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Can't join them :) I'm an anti-code crusading carebear and bot-aspirant, remember?

I mean't infiltrate not defect.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#18 - 2014-12-19 11:27:48 UTC
bumpage because i feel like people will benefit and logic behind the build seems solid.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#19 - 2014-12-19 21:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
They will just kill you in 2 or 3 waves instead of 1. They don't care if it's a "potential trap" because they would just find that more fun. If you autopilot in this you will return to a new clone in station.

If you're actually using it as a trap, it's the right fit though. Just don't come in Guardians. They will become the gank targets. The Nestor was the right suggestion. Slave it for full effect!

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#20 - 2014-12-20 01:51:21 UTC
Kudo's for thinking outside the box. You might make a post at Reddit or pop into the hauler channel if you're trying to spread your idea.

What are the EHP numbers for a Providence with reinforced bulkheads? Also, what is the cost for a HG Slave set? $100M is not much relative to the cost of the Providence, but the Slave set might really increase your cost exposure.

Finally, do you have any numbers for how much EHP Code typically ganks on Freighters? If it's like Skiff's and Orca's, they may only be going after the freighters that use expanded cargoholds and avoiding tanked freighters unless mega $$$ cargo.

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