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The other T2 Ammos
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Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#1 - 2011-12-15 11:39:06 UTC
Would it be possible for CCP to please put in the T2 ammo that has been in their database for years, but never used.

They are as follows:

Laser
Beam: Lux M
Pulse: Blaze M

Projectile
Autocannon: Storm M
Artillery: Shock M

Hybrid
Blaster: Desolation M
Railgun: Bolt M


Explosive/Em Lasers
EM/Thermal/Explosive Projectile rounds.
EM/Thermal hybrid rounds


Put them in the game CCP!

Ghost
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-12-15 12:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
This would pretty much give the unique Minmatar trait of selectable turret damage types to the other races. Might be a good way to tone down Minmatar a bit without actually nerfing them.

That said, the stats on them need some adjusting. 4 EM 20 EXP damage on a crystal is just too good. It should be more like a 50/50% split at best. Projectile turrets should still be the best turret to use when you need explosive damage, other T2 ammo shouldn't be better.

+1 for the general idea of implementing this T2 ammo in an intelligent way
Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#3 - 2011-12-15 13:36:06 UTC
Aye these ammos are way out of date, they would need modernising.

But the general overview of the ammo is still an interesting choice.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-12-15 13:38:53 UTC
Making T2 ammo more powerful in this fashion results in a greater need to train T2 weapons to be competitive. The result is to make it more difficult for new players to get into, and be competitive in, PVP. This is fundamentally bad for the game.

if we ignore this issue and introduce the ammos as T1 ammo, then the weapons that will benefit most will be the weapons that are presently most favoured - i.e., the ones that don't need boosting. It will increase the gap between bad weapons and good weapons.

Stop basing ideas on "because it's in the database" or "because it would be cool". Identify a game balance problem, then propose a solution.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-12-15 13:50:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
if we ignore this issue and introduce the ammos as T1 ammo, then the weapons that will benefit most will be the weapons that are presently most favoured - i.e., the ones that don't need boosting. It will increase the gap between bad weapons and good weapons.


You have it backwards.

The most popular weapon type by far (excluding missiles) are projectile weapons which already have the ability to change damage type. So popular that it's hard to argue they're completely balanced as they are. You did read the recent dev blog about this, right?

There are several reasons as to why projectile weapons are more popular and one of them is their selectable damage types. Letting hybrids and laser adjust damage types to some degree would likely reduce the dominance of projectile turrets without actually nerfing them.
Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#6 - 2011-12-15 14:10:57 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Making T2 ammo more powerful in this fashion results in a greater need to train T2 weapons to be competitive. The result is to make it more difficult for new players to get into, and be competitive in, PVP. This is fundamentally bad for the game.

if we ignore this issue and introduce the ammos as T1 ammo, then the weapons that will benefit most will be the weapons that are presently most favoured - i.e., the ones that don't need boosting. It will increase the gap between bad weapons and good weapons.

Stop basing ideas on "because it's in the database" or "because it would be cool". Identify a game balance problem, then propose a solution.



Hardly more powerful, its exactly the same damage with different types.

It would simply give Gallente and Amarr the ability to use 1 other damage type in exchange for some not-insignificant drawbacks.

It also gives Minmatar an EM-Thermal damage mix that they do not currently have.
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#7 - 2011-12-15 14:33:25 UTC
Looking at the laser pulse version (as that's the only thing that matters), it seems it doesn't modify your range, and only does slightly more damage than scorch, and much less than conflagration.
It'd be a good addition to solo Amarr work, providing range needed to stay out of scrams, but still not wastefully long like scorch, and most importantly gives the explosive damage allowing you to fight Minmatar ships competitively.

Still, it doesn't give huge range, and people would probably opt to still use scorch in large fleet fights.
Oh and btw, as many love to bring up how lasers are great at choosing range, the thing is, most of the time, you either use scorch or multifreq/conflag (same range). So it's really the same as other races, and this would balance that at the T2 gun level.

Oh and it would probably make legion incursion fleets even more ridiculously overpowered, but that's a different (NCO) issue.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-12-15 14:40:30 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
if we ignore this issue and introduce the ammos as T1 ammo, then the weapons that will benefit most will be the weapons that are presently most favoured - i.e., the ones that don't need boosting. It will increase the gap between bad weapons and good weapons.


You have it backwards.

The most popular weapon type by far (excluding missiles) are projectile weapons which already have the ability to change damage type. So popular that it's hard to argue they're completely balanced as they are. You did read the recent dev blog about this, right?

There are several reasons as to why projectile weapons are more popular and one of them is their selectable damage types. Letting hybrids and laser adjust damage types to some degree would likely reduce the dominance of projectile turrets without actually nerfing them.

The ability to select damage type is a pretty small part of the attractiveness of projectiles, since most PvP buffer fits tend towards omnitanks so that there is no real resistance hole to exploit.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-12-15 14:47:56 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The ability to select damage type is a pretty small part of the attractiveness of projectiles, since most PvP buffer fits tend towards omnitanks so that there is no real resistance hole to exploit.


Not disagreeing, but changing damage type is definitely worth doing in certain situations (just not all).
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-15 17:11:52 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
if we ignore this issue and introduce the ammos as T1 ammo, then the weapons that will benefit most will be the weapons that are presently most favoured - i.e., the ones that don't need boosting. It will increase the gap between bad weapons and good weapons.


You have it backwards.

The most popular weapon type by far (excluding missiles) are projectile weapons which already have the ability to change damage type. So popular that it's hard to argue they're completely balanced as they are. You did read the recent dev blog about this, right?

There are several reasons as to why projectile weapons are more popular and one of them is their selectable damage types. Letting hybrids and laser adjust damage types to some degree would likely reduce the dominance of projectile turrets without actually nerfing them.


The hybrid charges allow a switch from thermal/kinetic to thermal/EM, while the laser crystals allow a switch from EM/thermal to explosive. I don't need to tell you that one of these damage-type shifts is much more valuable than the other, especially so when host ships and combat environments are considered. Lasers would benefit from these new ammos much more than hybrids would.

As for projeciltes, well, the T2 projectile charges as linked are obsolete since the projectile changes. If they were implemented, they'd have to be made useful - EM Barrage or something? - which just results in an unwarranted boost to projectiles. Or would you suggest reverting the projectile damage-type changes?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-12-15 17:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Gypsio III wrote:
The hybrid charges allow a switch from thermal/kinetic to thermal/EM, while the laser crystals allow a switch from EM/thermal to explosive. I don't need to tell you that one of these damage-type shifts is much more valuable than the other, especially so when host ships and combat environments are considered. Lasers would benefit from these new ammos much more than hybrids would.


A 4:20 EM:EXP crystal would be ridiculous. The stats in the database are clearly placeholders. I think we all agree on that point.

Fortunately it's a simple thing to make each damage type shift about as good as the others by shifting damage ratios around.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#12 - 2011-12-16 06:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Ghost Nightmare wrote:

Explosive/Em Lasers


wat


I mean I get the idea there, but it isn't really an "explosion" in the sense of stuff detonating....closer to em damage really...

thhief ghabmoef
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-12-16 09:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Fix T1 Ammo first.

We need something like this:

Multifrequency (short range EM) ........: Hi EM low Thermal -50% optimal
Infra-red (Short rng Thermal) .............: Hi thermal damage low EM -50% optimal
Gamma (short range hi RoF) ............. : +50% RoF -50% Damage -50% optimal
X-Ray (Short Range hi tracking) .........: -50% optimal +10% tracking low dmg
Ultraviolet (Mid range Mid dmg)...........: +25% optimal
Standard (V.Low Cap Use Mid Rng) ..: +25% optimal -50% cap use -20% damage
Microwave (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)......: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal +100% Cap use
Radio (Extreme long range)..................: +60% optimal

Antimatter (Short rng Thermal)..............: High Thermal low Kinetic damage -50% optimal
Lead (Short rng Kinetic)...........................: hi kinetic low Thermal -50% optimal
Uranium (Short-Mid rng Hi RoF).............: +50% Rof -50% dmg -25% optimal -25% falloff
Plutonium (Short-Mid rng Hi tracking):.... -25% optimal & falloff +10% tracking low dmg
Thorium (Hi falloff low optimal)................: +50% Falloff
Iridium (Hi optimal Low falloff)..................: +50% Optimal
Tungsten (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)............: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal & falloff +100% Cap use
Iron (Extreme long range)..........................: +60% Optimal & fall off


Once we have a good mix of T1 ammo then we can look at extra T2 ammo.
Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#14 - 2011-12-16 10:04:09 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Ghost Nightmare wrote:

Explosive/Em Lasers


wat


I mean I get the idea there, but it isn't really an "explosion" in the sense of stuff detonating....closer to em damage really...




Actually theoretically thats how lasers will actually work in space.

First they superheat the material they are fired at, then due to the rapid cooling caused by the absolute zero of space there is an explosion as the material violently expands and contracts.

Physics yo
Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#15 - 2011-12-16 10:06:48 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Fix T1 Ammo first.

We need something like this:

Multifrequency (short range EM) ........: Hi EM low Thermal -50% optimal
Infra-red (Short rng Thermal) .............: Hi thermal damage low EM -50% optimal
Gamma (short range hi RoF) ............. : +50% RoF -50% Damage -50% optimal
X-Ray (Short Range hi tracking) .........: -50% optimal +10% tracking low dmg
Ultraviolet (Mid range Mid dmg)...........: +25% optimal
Standard (V.Low Cap Use Mid Rng) ..: +25% optimal -50% cap use -20% damage
Microwave (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)......: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal +100% Cap use
Radio (Extreme long range)..................: +60% optimal

Antimatter (Short rng Thermal)..............: High Thermal low Kinetic damage -50% optimal
Lead (Short rng Kinetic)...........................: hi kinetic low Thermal -50% optimal
Uranium (Short-Mid rng Hi RoF).............: +50% Rof -50% dmg -25% optimal -25% falloff
Plutonium (Short-Mid rng Hi tracking):.... -25% optimal & falloff +10% tracking low dmg
Thorium (Hi falloff low optimal)................: +50% Falloff
Iridium (Hi optimal Low falloff)..................: +50% Optimal
Tungsten (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)............: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal & falloff +100% Cap use
Iron (Extreme long range)..........................: +60% Optimal & fall off


Once we have a good mix of T1 ammo then we can look at extra T2 ammo.


While T1 ammo has its faults, i would recommend this thread stays on the topic of the pre-existing ammunition that CCP originally considered but for some reason scrapped.

Would be nice to hear from a Dev about why :)
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-12-16 10:34:11 UTC
Ghost Nightmare wrote:


While T1 ammo has its faults, i would recommend this thread stays on the topic of the pre-existing ammunition


Spugg Galdon wrote:


Once we have a good mix of T1 ammo then we can look at extra T2 ammo.
Ghost Nightmare
Bear Confederacy
#17 - 2011-12-16 13:56:34 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Ghost Nightmare wrote:


While T1 ammo has its faults, i would recommend this thread stays on the topic of the pre-existing ammunition


Spugg Galdon wrote:


Once we have a good mix of T1 ammo then we can look at extra T2 ammo.




I was trying to be nice, your idea is stupid on many levels.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-12-16 15:37:11 UTC
Because adding more stuff because it's "cool" or "in the database already" is the best idea before fixing the stuff that is actually broken Roll
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-12-16 18:15:07 UTC
Ghost Nightmare wrote:

Actually theoretically thats how lasers will actually work in space.

First they superheat the material they are fired at, then due to the rapid cooling caused by the absolute zero of space there is an explosion as the material violently expands and contracts.

Physics yo



Wow. That's some crazy physics you've got there. LolStraight