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Fighters and Off Grid assist

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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#61 - 2014-12-05 18:36:53 UTC
In many ways assigning fighters offgrid is very similar to offgrid boosting. CCP has already confirmed to kill the later in some future release, so it stands to reason that the former too will be removed. I hope the CSM make CCP aware of the unbalance caused by this feature.

All the carebears can cry me a river Lol
DaeHan Minhyok
Logical Outcomes
#62 - 2014-12-05 18:39:51 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.



only stats that matter on the assigned ship is drone 5 all others come from the assigner

Guess they must ofchanged that brcause it used to be that way
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2014-12-05 18:40:25 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
In many ways assigning fighters offgrid is very similar to offgrid boosting. CCP has already confirmed to kill the later in some future release, so it stands to reason that the former too will be removed. I hope the CSM make CCP aware of the unbalance caused by this feature.

All the carebears can cry me a river Lol


the csm is aware of this and its been pointed out to ccp as well for them to have a look at.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#64 - 2014-12-05 18:46:29 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.


1) Is not really that important; as we've said even the total loss of the fighters is insignificant compared to the advantage this method gains. I'm also pretty sure it's not true.

2) Think this isn't true too - fighters are bonused and skilled by the assigning char, not the one they're assissting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-12-05 18:59:03 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
only stats that matter on the assigned ship is drone 5 all others come from the assigner

Guess they must ofchanged that brcause it used to be that way

It should be that way. Why is it not that way?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#66 - 2014-12-05 19:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
only stats that matter on the assigned ship is drone 5 all others come from the assigner

Guess they must ofchanged that brcause it used to be that way

It should be that way. Why is it not that way?


Or just make it so you can only assign fighters to other capitals or command platforms - commandships, rorqual, orca, etc. (ok the last 2 are technically capitals).
Vadeim Rizen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-12-05 19:09:17 UTC
This "tactic" lame as it may be IS balanced. Take the fight in a different system. It's no different than rushing into a fight and seeing 5 friends warp in for assistance. If you take the fight without looking around system then you open yourself up to the attack. If you suspect someone is doing that, don't take the fight in said system.

I've never used the tactic as it is quite petty, but is not over-powered as it is so easily countered.
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#68 - 2014-12-05 19:21:58 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
This "tactic" lame as it may be IS balanced. Take the fight in a different system. It's no different than rushing into a fight and seeing 5 friends warp in for assistance. If you take the fight without looking around system then you open yourself up to the attack. If you suspect someone is doing that, don't take the fight in said system.

I've never used the tactic as it is quite petty, but is not over-powered as it is so easily countered.


It's not balanced if you have to never engage it. Why should a ship be able to lock a small fleet out of a system without ever having to leave the safety of its POS?
Gorski Car
#69 - 2014-12-05 19:33:56 UTC
There are many things in eve thats "not fair" and there are many things that make it impossible to engage a gang... with that said skynet carriers is nothing I support.

Collect this post
Les Routiers
Proudly Snoring
#70 - 2014-12-05 19:36:43 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Fighter replenishment is hardly a big issue (if it is you really need to give your industrialists a good kicking) - they are pretty basic to make, relatively small volume to shift if you used compressed stuff and make them out in null and sitting at the POS they can effortlessly resupply.


As a primarily manufacturing character, I can confirm that manufacturing fighters isn't hard at all, building a stockpile of the things is trivial.

If the carrier wants to field more, how about putting spare fighters in a SMA anchored in the POS the carrier is sheltering in, and then refitting the carrier off that SMA for on-the-fly fighter replenishment?

http://fr.capstable.net/ - podcast en français sur Eve online.
Ziirn
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#71 - 2014-12-05 20:35:18 UTC
Broken thing is broken
Eessi
Murderous Inc
Me Hearties
#72 - 2014-12-05 20:40:22 UTC
Confirming that delegated fighters are ridiculously op.

Please remove fighter delegation from the game ccp. Let's have carriers and supers be on grid to enjoy the damage and attack and follow abilities of fighters.

Calexis Atredies
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#73 - 2014-12-05 20:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Calexis Atredies
When we send out 10 pilots to Nullsec to engage in small scale skirmishes escalating to capitals and super capitals is not a viable option to fix the 'small scale PVP is broken by assisted fighters' argument. Do you not understand that by escalating a fight its now not small scale? Or are you simply saying that being able to engage in skirmish warfare has no place in this game other than for escalating fights?

Footwork has several pilots who exclusively pilot interceptors to gain initial tackle, most of their recent deaths are from fighter volleys. Many times they are dead before the rest of the fleet even lands =/

If you want to kill us please at least have the common decency to come to the fight...
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#74 - 2014-12-05 22:13:58 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.



The number 2 is highly different than my tests on SISI few months back, when I first wrote a thread of this matter.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#75 - 2014-12-05 22:21:35 UTC
The biggest problem I have with the assigning fighters is:

It allows the defender to get "free kills". It involves no amount of pvp at all. Just sit on gate with a ceptor alt, while your nyx or carrier is at pos assigning fighters. Whoever enters system gets pretty hard ******.

I have even seen heavy ratting systems, where the residents have turns on gate in a ceptor while others keep ratting undisturbed by any roaming gang entering.

Everyone here, who keep telling the mechanic is OK, are saying that just to be able to rat in peace with no disturbances whatsoever and get free kills.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-12-06 02:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Ugly Eric wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the assigning fighters is:

It allows the defender to get "free kills". It involves no amount of pvp at all. Just sit on gate with a ceptor alt, while your nyx or carrier is at pos assigning fighters. Whoever enters system gets pretty hard ******.

I have even seen heavy ratting systems, where the residents have turns on gate in a ceptor while others keep ratting undisturbed by any roaming gang entering.

Everyone here, who keep telling the mechanic is OK, are saying that just to be able to rat in peace with no disturbances whatsoever and get free kills.


It's not as risk or work free as people here would have you believe, nor does is grant users immunity while ratting in null systems. The truth is that using booster and carrier alts to bolster a combat pilot creates an attention deficit, particularly when you've been engaged, that can be easily exploited to destroy a players attendant alts. People do lose carriers this way, even supers. A guy in BNI lost a nyx doing exactly this a couple of months ago.

Fighters are powerful, and they do apply damage to subcaps better than ever, but the ships that they're assigned to are easily destroyed, and their DPS can be outrepped by cruiser logi. They're not free kills either. There's plenty of preparation involved in setting up a pos, training or buying a carrier alt, building or buying a carrier, having a paying for an extra account, and being able to manage those separate clients silmultaneously.

It's one of a few home field advantages that players can use to leverage their in system assets against a numerically superior force and I think that because of this, that fighter assist mechanics should remain in game. The vibe I get from this thread, and others, particularly concerning boosts, is that players here are upset that pilots who take the time to prepare and invest in tools to make themselves more powerful can beat beat players that don't.

You want to roam without support, logi, boosts, or intel? Fine, but don't expect to hop in every system and devastate mining ops and ratters or local residents that might be waiting for you with better prepared defenses.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#77 - 2014-12-06 02:37:33 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Ugly Eric wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the assigning fighters is:

It allows the defender to get "free kills". It involves no amount of pvp at all. Just sit on gate with a ceptor alt, while your nyx or carrier is at pos assigning fighters. Whoever enters system gets pretty hard ******.

I have even seen heavy ratting systems, where the residents have turns on gate in a ceptor while others keep ratting undisturbed by any roaming gang entering.

Everyone here, who keep telling the mechanic is OK, are saying that just to be able to rat in peace with no disturbances whatsoever and get free kills.


It's not as risk or work free as people here would have you believe, nor does is grant users immunity while ratting in null systems. The truth is that using booster and carrier alts to bolster a combat pilot creates an attention deficit, particularly when you've been engaged, that can be easily exploited to destroy a players attendant alts. People do lose carriers this way, even supers. A guy in BNI lost a nyx doing exactly this a couple of months ago.

Fighters are powerful, and they do apply damage to subcaps better than ever, but the ships that they're assigned to are easily destroyed, and their DPS can be outrepped by cruiser logi. They're not free kills either. There's plenty of preparation involved in setting up a pos, training or buying a carrier alt, building or buying a carrier, having a paying for an extra account, and being able to manage those separate clients silmultaneously.

It's one of a few home field advantages that players can use to leverage their in system assets against a numerically superior force and I think that because of this, that fighter assist mechanics should remain in game. The vibe I get from this thread, and others, particularly concerning boosts, is that players here are upset that pilots who take the time to prepare and invest in tools to make themselves more powerful can beat beat players that don't.

You want to roam without support, logi, boosts, or intel? Fine, but don't expect to hop in every system and devastate mining ops and ratters or local residents that might be waiting for you with better prepared defenses.



You just justified the reason this should be allowed is because anchoring a POS is "hard" and having an alt takes time. No one is complaining about boost its the fact that you need to scanning the whole system of every system before you engage anything unless you out number them significantly. See a small gate camp of 2 frigs and a cruiser? well better scan the entire system before your small gang engages. Once assigned that 2nd account doesn't require any attention. There have been videos posted in this thread that shows the problem.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-12-06 03:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Lady Rift wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Ugly Eric wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the assigning fighters is:

It allows the defender to get "free kills". It involves no amount of pvp at all. Just sit on gate with a ceptor alt, while your nyx or carrier is at pos assigning fighters. Whoever enters system gets pretty hard ******.

I have even seen heavy ratting systems, where the residents have turns on gate in a ceptor while others keep ratting undisturbed by any roaming gang entering.

Everyone here, who keep telling the mechanic is OK, are saying that just to be able to rat in peace with no disturbances whatsoever and get free kills.


It's not as risk or work free as people here would have you believe, nor does is grant users immunity while ratting in null systems. The truth is that using booster and carrier alts to bolster a combat pilot creates an attention deficit, particularly when you've been engaged, that can be easily exploited to destroy a players attendant alts. People do lose carriers this way, even supers. A guy in BNI lost a nyx doing exactly this a couple of months ago.

Fighters are powerful, and they do apply damage to subcaps better than ever, but the ships that they're assigned to are easily destroyed, and their DPS can be outrepped by cruiser logi. They're not free kills either. There's plenty of preparation involved in setting up a pos, training or buying a carrier alt, building or buying a carrier, having a paying for an extra account, and being able to manage those separate clients silmultaneously.

It's one of a few home field advantages that players can use to leverage their in system assets against a numerically superior force and I think that because of this, that fighter assist mechanics should remain in game. The vibe I get from this thread, and others, particularly concerning boosts, is that players here are upset that pilots who take the time to prepare and invest in tools to make themselves more powerful can beat beat players that don't.

You want to roam without support, logi, boosts, or intel? Fine, but don't expect to hop in every system and devastate mining ops and ratters or local residents that might be waiting for you with better prepared defenses.



You just justified the reason this should be allowed is because anchoring a POS is "hard" and having an alt takes time. No one is complaining about boost its the fact that you need to scanning the whole system of every system before you engage anything unless you out number them significantly. See a small gate camp of 2 frigs and a cruiser? well better scan the entire system before your small gang engages. Once assigned that 2nd account doesn't require any attention. There have been videos posted in this thread that shows the problem.


No, the justification is that this tactic allows a well prepared player to defeat unprepared players. Moreover, I'm not trying to defend the onlining of POS to protect carriers, just the fighter assist mechanic, which by itself I think is fine. Personally I think that there should be a delay between the time a POS password is set and when its shield comes online.

Fighters also take a considerable amount of time to arrive on grid, more than enough for players to see them incoming on dscan, and decide to disengage if they think it's something they can't handle.
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#79 - 2014-12-06 09:19:29 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:


It's not as risk or work free as people here would have you believe, nor does is grant users immunity while ratting in null systems. The truth is that using booster and carrier alts to bolster a combat pilot creates an attention deficit, particularly when you've been engaged, that can be easily exploited to destroy a players attendant alts. People do lose carriers this way, even supers. A guy in BNI lost a nyx doing exactly this a couple of months ago.

Fighters are powerful, and they do apply damage to subcaps better than ever, but the ships that they're assigned to are easily destroyed, and their DPS can be outrepped by cruiser logi. They're not free kills either. There's plenty of preparation involved in setting up a pos, training or buying a carrier alt, building or buying a carrier, having a paying for an extra account, and being able to manage those separate clients silmultaneously.


None of this is an argument against nerfing it. People do die doing it, but people also die in ships that are silly OP. That shouldn't stop them from being rebalanced.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
It's one of a few home field advantages that players can use to leverage their in system assets against a numerically superior force and I think that because of this, that fighter assist mechanics should remain in game. The vibe I get from this thread, and others, particularly concerning boosts, is that players here are upset that pilots who take the time to prepare and invest in tools to make themselves more powerful can beat beat players that don't.


Clearly you're terrible at picking up on vibes.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
You want to roam without support, logi, boosts, or intel? Fine, but don't expect to hop in every system and devastate mining ops and ratters or local residents that might be waiting for you with better prepared defenses.


We don't expect to automatically beat a defending force. What we want is for that defending force to actually have to itself to drive us away.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
Fighters also take a considerable amount of time to arrive on grid, more than enough for players to see them incoming on dscan, and decide to disengage if they think it's something they can't handle.


In our experience the fighters are generally already on grid at the gate when we arrive. Also; you're missing the point. Why should we have to disengage? Why is it reasonable that a ship can drive us off without ever having to put itself in substantial risk?
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#80 - 2014-12-06 09:54:16 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:


It's not as risk or work free as people here would have you believe, nor does is grant users immunity while ratting in null systems. The truth is that using booster and carrier alts to bolster a combat pilot creates an attention deficit, particularly when you've been engaged, that can be easily exploited to destroy a players attendant alts. People do lose carriers this way, even supers. A guy in BNI lost a nyx doing exactly this a couple of months ago.

Fighters are powerful, and they do apply damage to subcaps better than ever, but the ships that they're assigned to are easily destroyed, and their DPS can be outrepped by cruiser logi. They're not free kills either. There's plenty of preparation involved in setting up a pos, training or buying a carrier alt, building or buying a carrier, having a paying for an extra account, and being able to manage those separate clients silmultaneously.


None of this is an argument against nerfing it. People do die doing it, but people also die in ships that are silly OP. That shouldn't stop them from being rebalanced.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
It's one of a few home field advantages that players can use to leverage their in system assets against a numerically superior force and I think that because of this, that fighter assist mechanics should remain in game. The vibe I get from this thread, and others, particularly concerning boosts, is that players here are upset that pilots who take the time to prepare and invest in tools to make themselves more powerful can beat beat players that don't.


Clearly you're terrible at picking up on vibes.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
You want to roam without support, logi, boosts, or intel? Fine, but don't expect to hop in every system and devastate mining ops and ratters or local residents that might be waiting for you with better prepared defenses.


We don't expect to automatically beat a defending force. What we want is for that defending force to actually have to risk itself to drive us away.

Bullet Therapist wrote:
Fighters also take a considerable amount of time to arrive on grid, more than enough for players to see them incoming on dscan, and decide to disengage if they think it's something they can't handle.


In our experience the fighters are generally already on grid at the gate when we arrive. Also; you're missing the point. Why should we have to disengage? Why is it reasonable that a ship can drive us off without ever having to put itself in substantial risk?