Player Features and Ideas Discussion

My fail fitting ability got me lesser : EHP, DPS, optimal range and cap life. Better : Alpha, resist profile (debatable I guess), tracking and speed.

This is of course assuming I fail just as bad at fitting harpy as I do fitting jag. Still feels odd to have 3 slot used by fittings...

Alpha is good but not as big a selling point as some people make it to be. The real bonus of alpha is your "critical mass" number is lower for removing things off the field directly. The issue with the goons harpy fleet is they can reach critical mass for some encounter even when fitting rails. If 50 arty AF can alpha a ship, 100 rail AF can do it too and number is one things the goons can bring. The advantage of alpha get lost when you are already a large enough group shooting at the same things.

Here is something i threw together for comparison. Comparing smallest arty (250's for fitting), to the normally used rail gun, all on optimal bonused hulls. Used in a scram kite scenario.

Small arty/rail comparison

Its alittle small, hopefully you can see it.

DPS and alpha theme are consistent here, albeit a 50 dps difference, with double the volley.

The problem is its all quite underwhelming, 600 alpha sounds good on paper, but you're very likely not hitting for that, unless its a poorly tanked target. I'd say 250-350 would be average hits with that jag fit. A rail comet will and has spanked it, multiple times. The smallest artillery still needs 2 fitting mods, as compared to the middle class rail, which at most needs 1, or a very cheap 1% implant.

EHP is similar across the board. Granted this is with a rig dedicated to tank, and not dps on the jag. To me, 136ps is pretty pathetic for an AF, with 2 damage mods.

This is my jag fit, its the only thing that works (for me) and actually makes the alpha useable to bleed structure.

[Jaguar, 280's]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator II


6k EHP, 168 dps w/ 940 volley @ 11+11 range, 2900 m/s. Still needs 2 PG rigs and, technically a 1% implant. You don't need the implant if you have projectile rigging to 5. Which seems a bit much for an AF fit. So ask yourself, would you use the 250 fit, or the 280 fit, when they both need 2 fitting mods?

The tank might seem good at first with the 250's, but with the dps/volley you're doing, MASB or ancil armor rep will tank you pretty easily. Had 1 ancil armor rep fed comets tank that 280 fit pretty easily. I get them into structure, but the armor rep soaks up most of the alpha between shots.

there really is no reason to use 250's on anything but a thrasher and sabre. If fitting was reduced slightly, at least maybe the 250 fit could free up a rig to make it more appealing to use, or maybe get a dps rig squeezed in.

Im guessing the cap life on that is pretty aweful? Jag cap is pretty **** in general. Think its around 1min with only mwd and longpoint.

I find it amusing the "artillery is fine" crowd stopped responding. Its hard to prove an arguement when real world examples prove otherwise.

So that is another example of a ship DESIGNED for artillery still takes multiple fitting mods to fit its intended weapon system. Yet rails dont seem to have this problem. I cant even fit the smaller arty without 2 mods, where as rails dont have this problem with 125s (the intermediate size), have the same range, more dps (intended), better tank (after aar mag) AND they can utilize the utility high (except hawk). So with a nos, cap is less of an issue, and the "capless" weapon benefit of arty is irrelevant.

As demonstrated twice, the minny ships designed for artillery fall way short compared to their rail counterparts. I again propose a 10% reduction in PG requirements of small and medium arty. Also i have considered maybe giving the smaller tier arty a slight damage buff, to help give a reason to use them over rails or just trying to force 280s or 720s to fit.

This is a pretty good thread, IMO. +1 for OP and I do hope Ezwal or someone has forwarded this to Fozzie.

A long time ago, back in Dominion, projectile weapons and ammo were thoroughly overhauled, as were TCs/TEs. A lot of people remember this, but a lot of them also don't.

At that time, the stats on projectile weapons and on tracking mods were balanced around each other, with the idea that if it's a projectile boat, it's likely going to fit tracking mods as part of the Minmatar "flavor". Much more recently, tracking mods were nerfed in order to bring projectiles in line without any adjustment to projectiles themselves. This worked out alright (I suppose) for the larger and smaller types, but medium projectiles weren't as lucky.

Ok I never saw the Vagalos or the vagabond as OP.

both these ships had a 2-3 slot tank if there was a DCU instead of nano, the obvious point and prop and a defensive nuet. every other mod was gank. guns, stabs, and TEs . when other ships have cap boosters, assorted EWAR, an actual tank, cap boosted nuets, dual prop, and on and on.

the only thing that made the Talos "OP" is it actually had some frig / hard tackle defense in the form of drones. no other ABC has this.

and the old vaga, It was a 100 million isk glass cannon that could go frig speed, if flow well it was a nighmare, but once you could hit it or worse scam and nuet it the vaga was ******. and really these ships have to be flown manually. orbit buttons become the death of you in these kinds of ships.

I'm Okay with Matari ships having week tanks, that IS one of the racial drawbacks. however I wish arty was actually fittable to their fast attack ships...... and I wish the tempest was an actual attack ship.

If you compare more than one volley, you are comparing DPS, not alpha. The relative power of alpha comes from the lack of response time. The idea of a high alpha weapon is to just bypass the ability of the other side to rep. I can land reps between those rail first and second volley. There is no rep landing between the first and nothingness of the arty fleet. If you have critical mass, which is easyer to achieve with arty than it is with rails, you can kill stuff without any reps landing. If you do not have critical mass, you should bail out because your fit is not appropriate for the battle at hand.

Arty boat were never supposed to fight toe-to-toe with any other boats. They are meant to suckerpunch someone and then go away. Using them in the same way as a rail ship is not gonna work because the weapon systems are designed for different usage.

In a solo perspective, fitting arty is just bad. That's the end of this perspective because your alpha is wasted and you are left with mediocre dps. The wrong tool for the job don't get the job done.

In fleet, the current large fleet don't fit arty because they have a large enough mass of rails. Arty boat also don't make for good doctrine ships and should, as designed currently, be used as auxiliaries for suckerpunch move. Once your fleet and the enemy are engaged, a wing of arty gets a warp in, shoot a few volley on a key target and then GTFO.

This would effectively put pressure on a logi wing for example but it's a PITA to actually pull off so most people won't bother. If you mess up, you will get a bad warp and land in a terrible place and be ineffective while the duder in the mainline ship is useful all the time.

The skirmishing ships using arty should not rely on tank to stay alive, it should hit and then warp off before getting tackled followed by another warp in for a few shots before warping off again. Does it make for a **** mainline ship? Yes it does because such ships don't have the staying power to hold the line.

The real issue is most likely that it's hard to pull off for mainline grunts and risky.

If you don't want it that way, clamor for other changed but don't be surprised if it gets nerfed elsewhere.

Your demonstration of how much total damage gets applied over time is the very reason why they won't be used as mainline even if they get enough fitting space to equal rail boats. At the end of the day, they don't have the dps to win a long engagement so a rail platform will still be preferred as long as they fight last long enough. "Overkill" cycle from rail are also less of an issue than arty since they can start firing on the next target faster. Minnie just don't have mainline long range ship. Short range they could manage with autos but with arty, it just won't work. The characteristic of artillery are just not the good ones for a ship designed to trade blow while standing it's ground.

bump... I wanna arty SFI, the rail ENI works just fine,