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Manufacturing ships, am I wrong or are they just unprofitable?

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Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#1 - 2014-12-02 20:01:53 UTC
I have recently gotten involved in manufacturing and based on my calculations, many of the T1 ships seem to have higher mineral costs than the ships sell for, even under ideal set ups.

Why is this? Or am I missing something?
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#2 - 2014-12-02 20:09:17 UTC
It depends on a couple things.

What ships?

What ME blueprint?

Any teams?


Certain ships had their mineral content increased during their tiericide. Stockpiled ships from prior to tiericide, especially for lower production volumes, still exist.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-12-02 20:18:24 UTC
Bear in mind that mineral prices rose last week after the input broadcast ban. The ship prices will take a while to adjust.

Plus T1 ships often have thin margins. Everyone and their grandmother thinks making ships is sexy, and so they do, but the demand for ship hulls is relatively low.
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#4 - 2014-12-02 20:45:54 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Bear in mind that mineral prices rose last week after the input broadcast ban. The ship prices will take a while to adjust.

Plus T1 ships often have thin margins. Everyone and their grandmother thinks making ships is sexy, and so they do, but the demand for ship hulls is relatively low.

Especially smaller t1 where me and blueprints are cheap and skills have less impact (though production efficiency 5 is badly needed to make anything)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#5 - 2014-12-02 20:53:15 UTC
Tigerras wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Bear in mind that mineral prices rose last week after the input broadcast ban. The ship prices will take a while to adjust.

Plus T1 ships often have thin margins. Everyone and their grandmother thinks making ships is sexy, and so they do, but the demand for ship hulls is relatively low.

Especially smaller t1 where me and blueprints are cheap and skills have less impact (though production efficiency 5 is badly needed to make anything)



bzzzt, sound of someone who hasn't done industry recently.

That skill went away a while back.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2014-12-02 20:54:19 UTC
Tigerras wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Bear in mind that mineral prices rose last week after the input broadcast ban. The ship prices will take a while to adjust.

Plus T1 ships often have thin margins. Everyone and their grandmother thinks making ships is sexy, and so they do, but the demand for ship hulls is relatively low.

Especially smaller t1 where me and blueprints are cheap and skills have less impact (though production efficiency 5 is badly needed to make anything)

Well that and the huge influx of frigs/haulers/destroyers from the tutorials.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#7 - 2014-12-02 21:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: SJ Astralana
Tear Jar wrote:
I have recently gotten involved in manufacturing and based on my calculations, many of the T1 ships seem to have higher mineral costs than the ships sell for, even under ideal set ups.

Why is this? Or am I missing something?


You're missing something: A fair amount of research. For instance, in Amarr building from a station without a team and with a reasonably low system index, looking purely at lowest sell and highest buy, EPM tells me that the Rokh, Dominix and Talos are the three most profitable ships today, taking into consideration margin, turnover and market inventory. The Rokh turns over 180mil profit per day, Domi 470mil but with more competition, and the Talos 30mil with low competition.

The best cruiser presently is the Thorax, turning over 44mil per day with soft competition. I can't think of a reason any producer would bother with frigates, as cruisers will win that bet easily with very modest capital requirements.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Abaddon with a perfect team would be simply break-even without using a POS, but the Maelstrom would be a losing proposition no matter how good the operation.

Edit: I should have mentioned the Rokh margin was as of this morning 11.6%, Dominix 6.7%, Talos 6.6% and Thorax 8.4%.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2014-12-02 21:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Please see my "New to manufacturing" post, particularly why ships are a bad place to start.
Kestrix
The Whispering
#9 - 2014-12-03 08:02:01 UTC
It all really depends on weather you buy your minerals from the market or mine them your self
Amely Miles
Second Exile
#10 - 2014-12-03 08:27:32 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
It all really depends on weather you buy your minerals from the market or mine them your self


Mining yourself still takes "man hours" and therefore is not free.

the reasoning behind why it's not profitable to build is this .... people built stuff a long time ago theres stacks of ships sitting around and the manufacturers don't bother contending with todays prices instead they sell at the profit they wanted to make at the time they built the stacks of ships

also alot of people (not me) have droves of miners they can exploit for cheap minerals and ore ..... buy back programs exist for a reason

doing both of these makes you a very nice margin

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.
JudgeFranc
Italians do it better
#11 - 2014-12-04 02:08:11 UTC
SJ Astralana wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
I have recently gotten involved in manufacturing and based on my calculations, many of the T1 ships seem to have higher mineral costs than the ships sell for, even under ideal set ups.

Why is this? Or am I missing something?


You're missing something: A fair amount of research. For instance, in Amarr building from a station without a team and with a reasonably low system index, looking purely at lowest sell and highest buy, EPM tells me that the Rokh, Dominix and Talos are the three most profitable ships today, taking into consideration margin, turnover and market inventory. The Rokh turns over 180mil profit per day, Domi 470mil but with more competition, and the Talos 30mil with low competition.

The best cruiser presently is the Thorax, turning over 44mil per day with soft competition. I can't think of a reason any producer would bother with frigates, as cruisers will win that bet easily with very modest capital requirements.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Abaddon with a perfect team would be simply break-even without using a POS, but the Maelstrom would be a losing proposition no matter how good the operation.

Edit: I should have mentioned the Rokh margin was as of this morning 11.6%, Dominix 6.7%, Talos 6.6% and Thorax 8.4%.


On a side note, while being a good meter to evaluating Overall Growth, going directly from buy order value of the materials required to sell order value of the finished product is a "vicious" way of investigating a potential profitable item due to the high possibility on losing said profit on the industry side of the process.

To reiterate, if the value of the finished sell value of the product is lower then the overall sell value of its component i simply wasted time (which is indirectly isk) and isk when i could have turned the material right there without the logistic e industry infrastructure (more isk) needed to transform it in the finished product (give another look at the Rokh math with the sell/sell metric).

And on this i will like to expand on what Tau "the forum god" (really your post are always spot on and helpful) Calabander said before: battleships are a bad market to dip regularly your toe into for various reasons, high entry price, volatility of the price of the final product, low margin% that dont allow you to deep undercut to squeeze out competition WHICH YOU HAVE PLENTY, at least for the volume involved
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#12 - 2014-12-04 13:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: SJ Astralana
JudgeFranc wrote:
On a side note, while being a good meter to evaluating Overall Growth, going directly from buy order value of the materials required to sell order value of the finished product is a "vicious" way of investigating a potential profitable item due to the high possibility on losing said profit on the industry side of the process.

To reiterate, if the value of the finished sell value of the product is lower then the overall sell value of its component i simply wasted time (which is indirectly isk) and isk when i could have turned the material right there without the logistic e industry infrastructure (more isk) needed to transform it in the finished product (give another look at the Rokh math with the sell/sell metric).

And on this i will like to expand on what Tau "the forum god" (really your post are always spot on and helpful) Calabander said before: battleships are a bad market to dip regularly your toe into for various reasons, high entry price, volatility of the price of the final product, low margin% that dont allow you to deep undercut to squeeze out competition WHICH YOU HAVE PLENTY, at least for the volume involved


You seem to have not considered scale and minimum markup.

While I haven't picked up the Rokh because my business rules tell me I don't have enough capital to pick up anything new, I picked up the Dominix in June, and it is already my #2 seller with a GP of over 6%, profit about 6.6bil. I don't care what you smoke, you can't get six points flipping minerals in any kind of volume.

Edit: Throw a 4.5 to 7.5% team into the mix and margins approach the level of too good to be true but it's true.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-12-04 15:25:58 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Bear in mind that mineral prices rose last week after the input broadcast ban. The ship prices will take a while to adjust.

Plus T1 ships often have thin margins. Everyone and their grandmother thinks making ships is sexy, and so they do, but the demand for ship hulls is relatively low.


After announcement of the upcoming broadcast ban*
It isn't yet actively banned.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#14 - 2014-12-04 17:39:05 UTC
I haven't checked the markets recently, but it could be the recent jump in mineral prices (if an increase did occur).

But yeah, I usually put it down to large inventories or bad math. Also, many people will buy and sell ships and still make large profits while keeping the price under manufacturing costs.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2014-12-04 18:08:45 UTC
are you buying minerals or ore?

If you buy ore are you refining in a station or pos? High sec,low sec or null sec?

If nullsec, what station and level? tax?

What makes little to no profit tn high sec can be profitable in low sec and massively profitable in nullsec just due to how much more minerals you get from ore in null and low vs high sec.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#16 - 2014-12-04 18:10:19 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
are you buying minerals or ore?

If you buy ore are you refining in a station or pos? High sec,low sec or null sec?

If nullsec, what station and level? tax?

What makes little to no profit tn high sec can be profitable in low sec and massively profitable in nullsec just due to how much more minerals you get from ore in null and low vs high sec.


I am buying minerals at buy order prices.
SinEater Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-12-04 21:17:22 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
are you buying minerals or ore?

If you buy ore are you refining in a station or pos? High sec,low sec or null sec?

If nullsec, what station and level? tax?

What makes little to no profit tn high sec can be profitable in low sec and massively profitable in nullsec just due to how much more minerals you get from ore in null and low vs high sec.


I am buying minerals at buy order prices.


I am having the same problem. I have not been able to find anything profitable to manufacture either.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2014-12-04 21:27:59 UTC
SinEater Soikutsu wrote:
I am having the same problem. I have not been able to find anything profitable to manufacture either.

Try selling in another area, or just don't build ships.

I typically won't manufacture anything I can't turn at least a 10% profit on. My last batch of T1 modules earned over 20%.
Amely Miles
Second Exile
#19 - 2014-12-05 05:55:46 UTC
you could just build em at a loss figure up what a 10% margin is and then sell them at that price when they increase in value like they always do

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-12-05 07:00:51 UTC
SinEater Soikutsu wrote:
I am having the same problem. I have not been able to find anything profitable to manufacture either.


There's piles of items that are profitable, you just have to look around.
For the batch I'm currently planning, I'm looking at anywhere between 13% and 50% profit (that's with minerals bought on buy order, no mining required)
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