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Dev blog: A new Era of Clones

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Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#241 - 2014-12-03 23:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Commissar Kate
Algathas
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2014-12-04 00:05:22 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

If I as a pilot were buying an actual clone that I could produce, see, and trade rather than some vaporous number on a spreadsheet that has "100M SP" tattooed on it, having a clone would become more immersive and potentially have consequences like people want.

For example: no more clones at your base or corp HQ? You wake up in hisec NPC corp station. RIP deployment for the next 30 minutes while you travel back to base. No loss of SP. But you do have to spend a small chunk of time getting back into the fight.

If the fight is under heavy tidi, you can get back into the action "sooner". But it will still take the same amount of rl time to get there.

This kind of mechanic might even make clone-vat capable ships more valuable, especially in w-space. Running out of clones should not be inconsequential. But neither should it be the rage-inducing, month-long experience in self-flagellation that is has been until now.


Except that they are replacing clones with nothing. I would be perfectly happy if they put something useful in the current mechanic's place. But replacing them with nothing but a "maybe we will do something with them sometime when we get around to it" is not really acceptable.
Algathas
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-12-04 00:13:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Friday Football wrote:
Weighing in on this as a NEW player (lots of vets speaking their minds), I am excited by the prospect of more PVP. That's what brought me into EVE in the first place.

I'm going to bet this won't make jot of difference to the amount of pvp. What your hearing is mainly propaganda with no evidence. I'd like to see after a couple of months if this had made any difference whatsover to the amount of pvp; I very much doubt it.


If there's no effect at all, then the old system had no effect either. In that case, the systems are interchangeable in terms of their impact on the game; why not prefer the simpler of the two?


Because when I kill my enemy I want it to hurt. Ships and implants can all be SRP'd.


The odds of your podkill inflicting skillpoint loss is infinitesimally low, and even if you did luck into the podkill that did it, there's no way for you to know it happened unless the person you killed specifically tells you. You are literally banking on the player making an easily avoidable mistake, then having the lack of presence of mind to talk about it.

But, hey — good news. If you want to inflict skillpoint loss on folks, just prey exclusively on strategic cruisers. That part didn't change. You even have the surety of the loss in that instance!


It isnt about making them lose SP. It is about having *some* penalty for losing the pod to make someone make a strategic decision to not lose them. Most pods have no implants, so at least you inflict some isk damage on your opponent. If they lose isk per pod, most people will not lose them over and over again.

For example I have seen where someone came through the gate over and over again, trying to get to their ships in a POS. The pods never had implants so only had the loss of the clone. Each time we podded them until they got tired of losing their pod and logged on a titan to bridge around the gate LOL. Under the new scenario since they have nothing to lose, the same person might just continually keep coming over and over until we get too tired to kill their worthless pod. So as you can see, a penalty for pod death can cause content by causing someone to think of a strategy to avoid it.
Brenda Esterkarzova
Doomheim
#244 - 2014-12-04 05:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Brenda Esterkarzova
Well as a new player...I do not know a large amount about the great loss of SP due to being podded.

I have made several trips into LowSec and lost a ship there. It was annoying, but in truth something I knew was going to happen someday and I just wanted to get it out of the way.

Did a pub run with some experienced pvp'ers with frigates into NullSec. It was fun. The risk of death was there. The risk of being podded was there. I had something around 200K SP which the Alpha clone covers. Still made it out alive. Never once did I care about losing any SP.

After selling a PLEX and starting some pve content while researching skills and equipment/materials replenishment I came to realize that if I wanted to pvp without cost I just had to think small.

Dump everything into mining and just farm in high sec. If I go pvp then i could just take a less than 900K SP toon into low or Null and let her get podded into oblivion. Basic Alpha clone covers that SP, so please pew pew away. Yes losing that Venture or Rifter is annoying, however I have a few in reserve in several locations and crafting more to sell or use.

I can throw ship after ship at you for no real loss. Hell the group I was with gifted me some ships and ISK for having the moxie to try pvp with a toon that was less than a week old. Something tells me the high end corps that love pvp have absolutely no problem covering that loss. That run also taught me that losing a ship can be more painful than losing a non upgraded pod. Why would I cry over a frigate or a lowly Alpha clone pod, you just lost a super duper T3 battleship to a swarm of level nothing bees?

As CCP is going to remove this mechanic from the game I will say I now have a real reason to upgrade all my skills and fly bigger ships. Is the risk there...to me it is, always was. If I am foolhardy enough to take a fully decked out ship which I cannot or can barely afford to lose and toon full of impressively valuable implants and solo run into nullsec...maybe I need to be podded for my impressive stupidity. The SP loss was and is an inconvience, nothing more to me. Flush some ISK down a useless hole incase I am unlucky. Still did not cover the implants which i have heard are more valuable than the SP on occasion. Ship insurance can at least give me a little profit if I invest in the right level for my ship and it goes boom. Maybe some of you Veterans feel different and I respect that. It is what you are used to and humanity does not do change well. Honestly from the stand point of a Noob, yes I am a noob in this game and I bask in my silly foolishness. This change gives me more of a reason to be brave and stupid and take a chance.

I will tell everyone this, I just came to this game from another more grindy, pampered, hold my hand, space mmo which I really only enjoyed because I was a fan of the IP. Even with the removal of the SP clone mechanic. EVE has a VERY LONG way to fall before they get that bad. This game is still incredibly hardcore in comparison to most if not all MMOs out there. That is what intrigues me.

Thanks for the fun folks, see you out there.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#245 - 2014-12-04 07:11:59 UTC
It seems people have forgotten that there is one group especially who benefits from this change; we the wormhole people and especially the new ones who are to constantly upgrading their clones.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#246 - 2014-12-04 07:42:23 UTC
I like that I can now use my 140M SP main to light cynos, rather than use an alt... lol.
Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
#247 - 2014-12-04 09:04:52 UTC
Algathas wrote:


It isnt about making them lose SP. It is about having *some* penalty for losing the pod to make someone make a strategic decision to not lose them. Most pods have no implants, so at least you inflict some isk damage on your opponent. If they lose isk per pod, most people will not lose them over and over again.

For example I have seen where someone came through the gate over and over again, trying to get to their ships in a POS. The pods never had implants so only had the loss of the clone. Each time we podded them until they got tired of losing their pod and logged on a titan to bridge around the gate LOL. Under the new scenario since they have nothing to lose, the same person might just continually keep coming over and over until we get too tired to kill their worthless pod. So as you can see, a penalty for pod death can cause content by causing someone to think of a strategy to avoid it.

Did they tell you they were getting too heavy ISK losses, so they had to titan around you or are you just assuming things? Maybe it was done because they didn't have an infinite amount of time to play a game and wanted to get to their destination. A very good reason to do it and maybe more likely scenario considering the people in question could afford a titan. As I said though, the consequences on player behavior are certainly debatable and we'll see how things change.

Personally your theoretical scenario wouldn't be a problem for me. It takes a lot more time and effort for them to come back, than it takes someone to put an end to their beer can of a spaceship and sent them back to the clone bay. Not to mention the game is already filled with ways to get through camps, that are much faster and cheaper then losing a large amount of pods. After this change they won't be cheaper, but they're still faster and much more likely to get you to your destination, so I don't see much of an issue.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2014-12-04 10:04:44 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
...Ever played D&D? Remember that feeling when you encountered monsters like Vampires, Wraiths, Shadow Dragons, and other undead that could drain your character's levels even unto death? What typically happens when you get hit and the DM says those dreaded words "Whelp. You lose x levels"?

...


I played CyperPunk 2020, screw up and you get minced by a minigun toting cyborg...'Game Over man, Game over!' You people with clones don't even know you're born...:D
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2014-12-04 11:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: marly cortez
Not at all pleased with the Clone changes over all, I joined this game simply because after study it was the best around, difficult to progress, costly when you got it wrong and it required time and effort, plus not a little money over a long period of time to progress.

What I have seen in the past four years however has brought forwards the belief that CCP is staffed by people who believe not in the original concept of EVE but in the idea that it should be a game of instant gratification, started and finished in an afternoons thumb twitching which to be honest leaves a lot of players feeling they have wasted many years investment in both the game and CCP.

The game has lost balance, skewed as it's focus currently is towards Pvp, we have seen changes over the years to Jump bridges, mining, industry and now simply moving around the game board, this constant tinkering each time has left one aspect or another of the game at a disadvantage to the point now were some players seldom venture outside there home systems and in some cases have not moved for years.

The recent travel nerf's have seen players leave Null Sec in a flood, or at the very least become very resistant to movement at all placing a real strain on Alliance and Corp recruitment as the idea of jumping 30 or 40 gates to a system, 114 for some of us the other night, simply because they cannot even consider using Jump Bridges now, has meant that many will not even bother to join fleets and put in hours travelling on the off chance of a fight, mainly because the travel time outstrips there available play time, result, stagnant game play.

What little game play content generation there was left in EVE has been stripped away simply because players don't have the time to invest in these extended travel requirement so as predicted it,s local only stuff, and even then there is marked resistance to the travel involved, I,m all for change if it improves things, but in this case it has done the opposite and as a result players are finding it harder to justify investing the time and money in EVE required just to get to the fight CCP's advertising hype promised them...Please consider ALL aspects of a change before making it.

Each of these so called 'Improvements', have in fact not improved the game for all, but just for a minority faction and now we see CCP take away one of the most minor hindrances to even that area, what's next, new clones complete with implants you can never loose, wonder were we have seen that sort of thing before.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.
Commander Spurty
#250 - 2014-12-04 13:01:47 UTC
Strange whines:

"I disagree with this change as pod loss should mean something" = It does, they left the battlefield. Military Experts are calling this "A win".

Then there is this guy who states: "There should be some challenge to trying to get your pod to safety" and then goes on to say "Most pods have no implants anyway" . Shocked No, not disagreeing with yourself in the same paragraph matey.

Seems that all this furor is misguided.

It would be unacceptable if this change meant your implants remain intact after being podded. In fact, a lot of these whines make it sound like that this is the result of this change.

That would indeed be awful. It's not though is it? It's not because that's not what will happen.

Now, if you want to put a full high grade slave set in and start podding yourself "because you don't need to buy medical", go for it.


There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Algathas
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2014-12-04 13:12:22 UTC
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:
Algathas wrote:


It isnt about making them lose SP. It is about having *some* penalty for losing the pod to make someone make a strategic decision to not lose them. Most pods have no implants, so at least you inflict some isk damage on your opponent. If they lose isk per pod, most people will not lose them over and over again.

For example I have seen where someone came through the gate over and over again, trying to get to their ships in a POS. The pods never had implants so only had the loss of the clone. Each time we podded them until they got tired of losing their pod and logged on a titan to bridge around the gate LOL. Under the new scenario since they have nothing to lose, the same person might just continually keep coming over and over until we get too tired to kill their worthless pod. So as you can see, a penalty for pod death can cause content by causing someone to think of a strategy to avoid it.

Did they tell you they were getting too heavy ISK losses, so they had to titan around you or are you just assuming things? Maybe it was done because they didn't have an infinite amount of time to play a game and wanted to get to their destination. A very good reason to do it and maybe more likely scenario considering the people in question could afford a titan. As I said though, the consequences on player behavior are certainly debatable and we'll see how things change.

Personally your theoretical scenario wouldn't be a problem for me. It takes a lot more time and effort for them to come back, than it takes someone to put an end to their beer can of a spaceship and sent them back to the clone bay. Not to mention the game is already filled with ways to get through camps, that are much faster and cheaper then losing a large amount of pods. After this change they won't be cheaper, but they're still faster and much more likely to get you to your destination, so I don't see much of an issue.


They titan bridged to go what would be 1 jump by gate. So their effort to come back is nill except that their pod had expense.

Even in a normal combat scenario, most people don't have implants, thus if this patch goes through they would actually *prefer* to be podded so they can come back quicker. A system where people prefer to die is worse than a system with clones.
Algathas
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#252 - 2014-12-04 13:18:43 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
Strange whines:



Then there is this guy who states: "There should be some challenge to trying to get your pod to safety" and then goes on to say [i]"Most pods have no implants anyway" . Shocked No, not disagreeing with yourself in the same paragraph matey.

Seems that all this furor is misguided.




I'm not contradicting myself at all. There definitely should be a challenge or reason to get your pod to safety even without implants in your pod. Why should someone prefer to be podded so they can come back quicker? Shouldn't death be something not preferable, or at the very least if you choose to die, then you get to your base quicker but you choose the consequence. If these changes go through it would be more preferable to be podded than to not be podded, to the point where I imagine anyone without implants thats not podded will even self destruct rather than trying to live.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#253 - 2014-12-04 15:20:11 UTC
Algathas wrote:
Commander Spurty wrote:
Strange whines:



Then there is this guy who states: "There should be some challenge to trying to get your pod to safety" and then goes on to say [i]"Most pods have no implants anyway" . Shocked No, not disagreeing with yourself in the same paragraph matey.

Seems that all this furor is misguided.




I'm not contradicting myself at all. There definitely should be a challenge or reason to get your pod to safety even without implants in your pod. Why should someone prefer to be podded so they can come back quicker? Shouldn't death be something not preferable, or at the very least if you choose to die, then you get to your base quicker but you choose the consequence. If these changes go through it would be more preferable to be podded than to not be podded, to the point where I imagine anyone without implants thats not podded will even self destruct rather than trying to live.


newsflash: that's exactlly how is happening right now; you die in a fight, and if you are away from home and have no implants you let yourself podded or selfdestruct Blink
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#254 - 2014-12-04 18:48:11 UTC
gascanu wrote:

newsflash: that's exactlly how is happening right now; you die in a fight, and if you are away from home and have no implants you let yourself podded or selfdestruct Blink


But people don't even undock because of medical clone costs?

Anyway, earlier pod express at least cost something, in the future there's no reason ever to not SD or ask to get podded. In other words, pod death becomes a mean of transport instead of something to avoid.


Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2014-12-04 21:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Aiyshimin wrote:

But people don't even undock because of medical clone costs?


It's amazing how many people can't see that this is a bad thing for the game overall.

Quote:

John Doe is a 200mil skillpoint character that rarely undocks because his clone cost is very high.

If John were to undock, that means that he is most likely flying a ship made by a player.

If John gets blown up, that means that a player needs to make another ship for John to fly in their new pod.

People making ships for John create more demand for minerals, t2 items, t3 items, faction gear, etc.

In order for people to make ships and items for John, people need to move materials from point A to B.

With high clone costs, John likely will not undock to go shoot that neutral freighter passing through his system, which is carrying goods that will be made into the next ship he undocks in.



Edit: In a game built around a player-made economy, consumption is always better than (not consumption) because of an arbitrary isk sink related to how old your character is.
JamnOne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2014-12-04 21:18:28 UTC
Since our clones won't be stuck to a pod anymore that we cherish, and CCP has learned how to make players walk with DUST514(R), does this mean we can walk in station now?

Okay - on a more serious note, with players no longer having to worry about skill point losses due to clone loses I can see an increase of griefing. Why worry about the consequences when there is nothing to lose but a cheap ship?
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#257 - 2014-12-04 21:26:02 UTC
But people currently SD or get themselves podded to get home faster?

Make up your minds?

Also, John Doe's medical clone costs 46 million isk. As much as a T1 cruiser, this is not "very high" by anyone's standards. The most expensive medical clone in game is 105mil. Which is also nothing.

Average clone cost using eveboard data is 2.1 million.



Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2014-12-04 22:56:29 UTC
Pod fatigue anyone ?

If podkill X LY from your home system,you can't Jump Clone for Y minutes more and Z minutes upon skill queue reactivation ?

mouhahahah i love bad ideas !

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Serenit Adoulin
Stille Gewalt
#259 - 2014-12-04 23:10:06 UTC
First of all: HURREEAYYYY WE ALL LOVE YOU FOR THESE CHANGES. (not all cuz haters apperently but haters gona hate ...)

I think the changes are pretty awsome.

Eventhough i would like to prupose another idea to consider:

What about a small chance to get implants back if you unplug them ?

that dont need to be a high chance so only like 20 or 40 percent or even lower. also that may change from implan to implant (expansive ones lower rate, cheap ones higher or so)

That would make it better for players who have expansive implantes but dont need or use the effect anymore.

For example If someone plugged a +5 capacitor implant into his Pod. has no jumpclones jet and needs the 6 slot for a t2 omega implant or a other hardwire implant. The speciffic person has improved his skills on cap management as well.
No he is forced to unplug the implant and destroys it.
In my opinion, if you are so far ahead in neuro technologie to make your ship generate more cap through a piece of electronic cercuits pluged into your brain, than you normally also live in a civilization that has the techonolgy to unplug these things again without damageing you (allready possible) and the implant as well (currently not possible)

Also that could be applied to riggs, of course, since it is basicly the same thing. for ships, but that would have a way to big impact on the ecconomy of salvage and inpracticable to get you the intact rigg back.

-serenit
Serenit Adoulin
Stille Gewalt
#260 - 2014-12-04 23:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenit Adoulin
Aiyshimin wrote:
But people currently SD or get themselves podded to get home faster?

"most expensive medical clone in game is 105mil. Which is also nothing. "

Average clone cost using eveboard data is 2.1 million.





1. Don't missunderstand me, but 105m for the most expansive clone is still unpracticable to lose often in a row.
Its like a fee for beeing playing long which is stupid.

In addition thats now, after the remap of the skillgrade costs. The maximum cost for a clone used to be far more!

2. Averages are dangerous to play with.
Especially since people with more than 2,1m Sp know who to save pods and will do so.
Also more people with low SP die in FW for example.

There is a nice statistic I like to bring if people argue with averages: 9 out of 10 people enjoy a massrape. Shoudn't we apply democratic values now and make it legal then ?

Think about it. you might judge a book on its cover.

-Serenit


EDIT: instead of millions to pay for a new clone a "loading time" is more appropate I think.


A timer that indicates in % of how much skills are usable after getting into your new clone. (loading the SP-memory from the RAM buffer into your head for active use after the fast download into your head. Because your new brain certently wont learn millions of SP in a fraction of a second)

The total normal timer should not exceed 5 minutes in my opinion.
(timer should also indicate what average of SP is allreay regained and usable)
making the timers time dependent on the total SP a toon has seemd to be resonable at first. But i thought that would be like it is now: high SP players spend isk, a new player don't need to spend to get the same effect.

There might be also different types of clones that will take less time to recover skills for active use again.

So the normal clone takes 5 minutes maximum to make all skills reusable again, while a improved one will only take 3 minutes (costs extra isk) and a professional grade will only take 1,5 minutes or so to make all skills usable again.

Starting with all skills at lv 1 alll skills to lv2 and going up until only the lv5s are left.

Also there could be the possibility to sort what skills to "implement" first:

So that, as a pvper, i can get in my HAC soon again but my weapons might take a bit longer (but until i arrive my location of death my weapon skills are back again.)

If you put in only 5 million or so for an improved clone and 10m for a professional, that would offer more options to players.

Those who are poor like new players wont need to undock as soon as possible again (will recover in most cases from the recent butthurt anyways)
Whereas the years old PVPers whould likly get the clones that cost you something to undock and help their mates still in battle.

Edit II: that would also solve the problem mentioned above that players see no need to escape in their pods. (they would want to even if no costs because of the timer) or because of the amount they put into it.

I would really like to know what you guys think about this