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[Rhea] Corp Invitation Changes

First post First post
Author
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#61 - 2014-12-03 09:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Pak Narhoo
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.

Thanks again


I personally would appreciate it if you hold this back till you're ready to overhaul the entire corporation interface.
It's just a one click you remove with little to no benefits and a whole lot of possible headaches and abuses.

I'm sure that once you're ready redoing the interface you'll find no need for this one-click add-on many do not want nor need.
Is this really needed I ask myself.Question

Also introducing this then going oh, we need to to mitigate the concerns that have been raised seems a bit odd.
You're an EVE dev. First thing you probably should do when you have an idea of a new mechanic/item/etc is asking your self, "how will our players abuse this?" You know us we will. Give us a hand we'll run away with your arm.Twisted
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#62 - 2014-12-03 13:16:41 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.

Thanks again

Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback.

Not implementing a feature means not paying a salary for devs involved.
There is a workaround though:
1. They implement the feature.
2. They wait for clusterfuck to build up.
3. They resolve it by removing the feature.
4. Everyone's happy. PROFIT!
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#63 - 2014-12-03 16:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Lebowski
Ok all, thanks again for all the feedback.

Firstly let me clear up some misconceptions that have been rampant in this thread and then Ill get onto what we're doing to address some of the legitimate concerns people have for this change. Bear with me!

How the current system actually works (On TQ right now)
1. Character applies to corporation. - Must be in station
2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station
3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Can be in space or in station

As you can see from the above, most of the things people are worried about are already possible on TQ, the only thing a station is required for currently is the initial application, after that application is in the rest of the process is unrestricted.

After considering this though, we do admit that the system is inconsistent and is open to abuse, so we've made some changes that should improve this for all.

How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made)
1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station
2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station
3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod

In addition to this, quitting corp will also now be subject to the station or pod restriction, meaning that changing corporations is always consistent.

This change does a few things:
- Moves all restrictions to the most obvious step, aligning them with the existing restriction to changing to a rookie corp.
- Allowing people to switch corporations while in pod restricts their ability to abuse the mechanic (Which as some have pointed out is already a confirmed exploit), while not forcing wormholers and other stationless folk to return to a station to change corporations.

Some notes on spam
Many were concerned that this option will be open to spam abuse, and you could expect to receive a constant stream of invitations every time you enter places such as Jita. Firstly, invite spam is a bannable offence, if you suspect someone of doing this you need only report them for spam and our GMs will do the rest! Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once. And last but not least, we'll be throttling the amount of invites a player can send per minute to 6.

And as mentioned previously, you can use the new notification to ensure you never have to see another invitation.

For those unclear of the process it is as follows:
1. Click the notification button.
2. Click the settings button.
3. In the resulting window, expand the 'Corporate' section.
4. Deselect both check boxes next to 'You have been invited to join a corporation'

And finally, I just wanted to ensure everyone that this is by no means the end of Five 0s foray into corps, but in fact the beginning. This was simply a low hanging fruit designed to ease the process from newbro to corporation member and all round spacebro. Expect to hear more from us in the future as we delve into this wonderland of contradictions and old code! Smile

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2014-12-03 18:04:29 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.

Thanks again

Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback.

I'd like to point out this guy is wrong: any feedback is generally dominated by the people rending their garments over it. I think this is a helpful and useful change that's definitely going to be useful for altcorps and things like that.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-12-03 18:10:59 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its much appreciated. We're obviously concerned about ways this can be abused and we're working on some ideas to mitigate the concerns that have been raised so far. Nothing to share yet, but I just wanted to drop by and let you all know we working on it.

Thanks again

Just don't implement it would be the best solution. Hardly anyone wants it if you read the feedback.

I'd like to point out this guy is wrong: any feedback is generally dominated by the people rending their garments over it. I think this is a helpful and useful change that's definitely going to be useful for altcorps and things like that.


Agreed. To me, this is quite useful and makes sense to have a standardization of the recruitment/kicking process.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

Alner Greyl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-12-03 18:11:23 UTC
Add button: Restrict corp invitations P
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#67 - 2014-12-03 18:43:47 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Must be in station OR pod

What a dramatic twist.
Looks like the change is not that useless anymore.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#68 - 2014-12-03 19:16:51 UTC
Amazing. I'm surprised highsec PvP happens at all given how badly broken it was going to be after Rhea. What a bunch of noobs :)

Now I guess there will be a bunch of surprise concordokken before next week!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#69 - 2014-12-03 22:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Question.

I undock in a shuttle or rookie ship and allow a war target to blap me without resisting them (no limited engagement timer). I then accept another corp invite into a neutral corp in space as a capsule before the WT has a target lock - if they shoot my pod, will they be CONCORDED?


Second question.

Re invite spamming. Is it acceptable to send totally unsolicited corp invites under this new system, assuming you don't intentionally send more than one invite to a given pilot and you don't intentionally time the invites to be disruptive? (and you don't use any means to circumvent the 6 per minute rule)


Third question.

I assume it is against the rules to ever send someone an unsolicited corp invite at a time that is intended to be disruptive, even if you only ever send one invite (e.g. when you have a station trade window open with the person on your alt). Is this correct?




Concrete suggestion to fix the first issue: Have joining a corp in space in a capsule be only possible if you do not have a capsuleer combat logoff timer.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-12-03 23:07:15 UTC
Quote:
Insta- Joining and Leaving corporations to surprise war targets is an exploit! - Reported: 2008.08.26 15:38:53


Sure took your sweet time fixing that, huh?

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interesangt
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-12-04 00:37:12 UTC
You might want to consider automatic role/title drop when players want to leave or gets kicked..
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#72 - 2014-12-04 03:27:33 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:

Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once.

And as mentioned previously, you can use the new notification to ensure you never have to see another invitation.

Sooo, let me clear something up. From how you worded it, i have to leave all 'spam' invites permanently 'pending' and not ever decline any of them, or they can just send me another the next time they get back around to my name in local.

Also, the 'notifications' part does nothing to prevent the clutter of corp invites in everyones inbox. This is also a huge negative here. SOOOO MUCH INBOX CLUTTER.

Also, whats to prevent someone from having an orca with a T3 in its bay from pulling the same shenanigans....? Or is that still going to be considered an exploit? Why not just fix the system to not allow combat with a new corp for a warm-up period, or be not allowed to board a ship for so long...your 'pod' requirement does not fix the problem.

But who am i kidding, you have this the way you want it, i'm not really sure why you bother with feedback on most things anymore...generally you fail to respond to it, and when you do it is usually by telling us how wrong we are and/or how 'it won't be that bad on TQ'....
Callic Veratar
#73 - 2014-12-04 05:29:06 UTC
So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:

1) Have Invite Ready
2) Eject Pod
3) Accept Invitation
4) Board Ship

Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#74 - 2014-12-04 06:02:35 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:

1) Have Invite Ready
2) Eject Pod
3) Accept Invitation
4) Board Ship

Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp.

The process RIGHT NOW is:

1) Have Invite Ready
2) Accept Invitation

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#75 - 2014-12-04 10:18:36 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
So, the process now to get into a corp in space is:

1) Have Invite Ready
2) Eject Pod
3) Accept Invitation
4) Board Ship

Unless you're considering adding a flag to prevent a pod from boarding a ship within a short period surrounding joining or leaving a corp.
Sorry I should have made this clear, a session change happens when you change corp, so you can't board a ship for a short time afterwards.

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-12-04 10:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Freeman
Any limitations about inviting players to join a faction warfare corp? Sitting in Jita and Inviting unsuspecting players to join a corp that is in Minmatar/Gallente FW could be super fun.

Also, how soon after joining do wardecs become effective? Might try making two corps, setup a wardec from one to the other and then try get the undocking freighters to join. Could work about the same as trying to trick them into a duel request.

What is the default setting for a fleet hanger? If the default is corporation use then it might be worthwhile trying to recruit some unsuspecting orcas. Might be able to snag a backup hulk or something from the hanger if they click accept.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-12-04 15:01:16 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
How the current system actually works (On TQ right now)
1. Character applies to corporation. - Must be in station
2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station
3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Can be in space or in station


Hmm, I was sure that this wasn't how it worked, but you're right. My mistake.

Quote:
How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made)
1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station
2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station
3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod


Okay, so given that joining is now pod or station restricted, I presume the old surprise war target exploit ruling will no longer apply? So this is actually a wardec buff and intentionally so?

What about a player who is in a pod and currently pointed joining another corp to immediately change the rules of engagement while in pvp? This remains an issue, could you restrict accepting an invitation to a) docked or b) in pod with no pvp logoff timer?

Complaints about invite spam stand, but clearly you aren't going to budge on that.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2014-12-04 15:35:33 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Quote:
Insta- Joining and Leaving corporations to surprise war targets is an exploit! - Reported: 2008.08.26 15:38:53


Sure took your sweet time fixing that, huh?


That was when we declared it as an exploit publically. Did a bit of digging for funsies. We discovered/reported it as a defect the day before. Decided to go the route of announcing it as an exploit rather than fixing immediately due to some design concerns relating to Titans and Supercarriers pilots being unable to join corps if we went with our proposed fix. There's a lot of back and forth between people I don't know, then the defect goes quiet until 2011 (by this time it had been replaced by another defect in fact) when it gets closed due to being unable to change corp in space. That was fun Smile

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#79 - 2014-12-04 15:39:54 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:

Okay, so given that joining is now pod or station restricted, I presume the old surprise war target exploit ruling will no longer apply? So this is actually a wardec buff and intentionally so?

The exploit ruling stands until we explicitly state otherwise. This change makes that particular exploit less powerful and more difficult, but that doesn't negate the earlier ruling.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
Viral Society
#80 - 2014-12-04 15:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Luc Lemmont
CCP Lebowski wrote:

How the system will work in Rhea (Including changes we've made)
1. Character applies to corporation. [SKIPPABLE] - Can be in space or in station
2. A corp member with appropriate roles invites player to join. - Can be in space or in station
3. Character accepts invite and enters corp. - Must be in station OR pod

Some notes on spam
Many were concerned that this option will be open to spam abuse, and you could expect to receive a constant stream of invitations every time you enter places such as Jita. Firstly, invite spam is a bannable offence, if you suspect someone of doing this you need only report them for spam and our GMs will do the rest! Secondly, a player can only have one invite pending per corp, so while spamming from multiple corps is possible one corp cannot send you an invite more than once. And last but not


Given these two tweaks, I have no objections.

I would still like to see a way to stop corps sending me invites directly, in the same way that corps can disallow people applying to join.

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