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Steps to survive Freighter bumping from Mach

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Siegfried Cohenberg
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling
Freighter Friends
#61 - 2014-12-03 01:01:25 UTC
I recommend paying off known mach bumpers to leave you alone. This way you wont have to worry about being bumped when you see them.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#62 - 2014-12-03 01:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or of course, they could give freighters REAL Fittings.
They are Capital ships, give them the same slot layouts and fitting allowances as Dreads or Carriers.
Still no Turrets, Launchers or Drone bays obviously. But at that point they can actually choose a whole lot of fitting options.
Split a lot of their cargo off into a 'special' bay that can still carry anything. Or a Fleet Hanger if that's what they choose. And you don't have to worry about them hauling capitals internally.

At which point they would actually have reasonable tools at their disposal to do things with.
Including LOL Smart Bomb freighters on low/null gates, which would be funny :P
But things like Target Spectrum breakers should be fittable to things like Freighters for examples. They should be able to web each other so teamwork rather than having to have an alt in a frigate be considered compulsory.
Why shouldn't a freighter be able to MWD or Cloak.

It would make the game a lot more interesting and stop treating Hauling pilots like second class citizens fit only to be ganked or flown by alts if they actually had real fitting allowances.
Yes, base EHP unfitted might have to drop slightly, or might not, given how easy a gank currently is and that even 1 Million EHP is still gankable. But the splitting of most of the cargo space into a special bay or fleet hanger also removes the compulsory cargo rigging that happens for anyone needing to haul large volume material. Just leave enough in the base cargo that it's not a no brainer to ignore cargo rigs (Like, 500k Special hanger, 250k base cargo) and you will get a whole spectrum of interesting fits.

And we can LOL at the people who max cargo fit, haul 10_ Billion and get ganked still, since people will. But the people who don't and do good fits will feel much better.




I still wonder at times, when I see freighters go down, if I could get some friends in a tiny car and give everybody some handguns or a rifle and see if we can take out a container truck or tractor trailer in "one volley".

You'd think all that metal could mean something but then I am told a missile has something like a 40 kiloton yield - yet the freighter is freaking huge.


I think it'll go either way - either bumping will get a suspect flag or freighters become tankable. And remember, not because CCP wants to "go carebear" but simply because of abuse. If every freighter pilot wised up and started hauling less there would be no reason to gank them and that one who does not get a webbing alt will be the one who gets bumped for an hour. If he wises up and hauls only enough for a lol-gank, then we are headed into the harassment zone (no profit or tactical advantage to the action).

I've warned people in the past but nobody listened. And there went insurance payouts. Then indies got a boost. Then interceptors got interdiction nullification. The gratuitous ISBoxers flew their 30 ship fleets and would not listen now look what's happening. The one man with 8 bombers ganking the crap out of people didn't listen. The people batphoning capships for OMGWTFPWN instadrop N+1 didn't listen and now look we're getting jump fatigue that everybody whose crying now was enjoying the tears of everybody who was getting "I'm tired of getting instablobbed" fatigue (which one was hurting the game more?).



People wanna be like "I got mine. Nyah nyah nyah!" and the game went into a malaise. Nobody listened.

So the bumpers won't listen - and guess what's going to happen eventually.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#63 - 2014-12-03 01:12:18 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If every freighter pilot wised up and started hauling less there would be no reason to gank them.


They will gank anything. It's not about the loot. Flying an empty freighter will not save you.

Profit favors the prepared
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-12-03 01:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I still wonder at times, when I see freighters go down, if I could get some friends in a tiny car and give everybody some handguns or a rifle and see if we can take out a container truck or tractor trailer in "one volley".

Depending on the caliber of the firearm, certain small arms can disable the engine block of a semi with a single round, so...

I've spent quite a bit of time in freighters and jump freighters. My experience has always been that if you take adequate precautions, you'll be fine.
Evei Shard wrote:

They will gank anything.

Then it isn't really just about freighters either, is it?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#65 - 2014-12-03 01:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


They are almost invincible when flown with the current reasonable tools at their disposal. My freighter alt has yet to lose her cargo despite often carrying 2bil or more in her hull.

They absolutely do not need any additional functionality in any way. They are supposed to have some chance to die, you realize.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
And how every time anyone calls for a buff you disagree with it's not needed because you can do 'X'

Freighters however most certainly do need additional fitting functionality.
All industrial ships do.
They need to not have their stats hard baked and instead be able to manipulate them via their fittings, and to have a sensible allowance in fittings to do so.

I am not calling for them to become ungankable, but when the 'gank' limit on a freighter is considered to be less than the value of the hull, and filling them with a hull full of almost any basic mineral exceeds that gank limit..... I think it's fair to say there is an issue.
When a web alt is considered 'compulsory' to fly a Freighter, I think it's fair to say there is an issue.

Exactly where the point should be for a Gank, I don't know, and I wouldn't complain if EHP stayed the same assuming a 'reasonable' fit. Note, Reasonable does not include officer fittings, High grade slaves or two OGB alts (One each side of the gate so you can't get ganked before the OGB has it's links running). Reasonable includes a T2 fit with some room for other fittings or implants to improve agility, warp speed, utility or cargo still. This would mean max cargo fits would reduce in EHP almost certainly, but a standard fit should remain the same, meaning max EHP brick fits would increase somewhat.

And the idea of a Smart Bombing freighter gang also appeals to me for LOL killmails where Freighters kill combat ships :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#66 - 2014-12-03 01:15:47 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I still wonder at times, when I see freighters go down, if I could get some friends in a tiny car and give everybody some handguns or a rifle and see if we can take out a container truck or tractor trailer in "one volley".

You'd think all that metal could mean something but then I am told a missile has something like a 40 kiloton yield - yet the freighter is freaking huge.


It's a Walmart truck, up against military grade weaponry.

So if you're asking whether it can survive cannonfire from multiple M1 tanks while sitting still, the answer is no.

Quote:

I think it'll go either way - either bumping will get a suspect flag or freighters become tankable.


They have access to about a third more max tank now than they did before the rebalance.


Quote:

So the bumpers won't listen - and guess what's going to happen eventually.


Yeah, screw them for actually playing their playstyle. They should just be content with it's theoretical existence, because if they actually play it they might get nerfed because the thumbless monkeys who fly freighters can't be asked to defend themselves properly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#67 - 2014-12-03 01:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed a reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

Quote:

And how every time anyone calls for a buff you disagree with it's not needed because you can do 'X'


Yeah, because if existing defenses are sufficient, then the only problem lies with the people who refuse to actually use them.


Quote:

I am not calling for them to become ungankable


Yes, you are. They are already almost ungankable as it stands anyway, any further buff pushes them out of balance.


Quote:

, but when the 'gank' limit on a freighter is considered to be less than the value of the hull, and filling them with a hull full of almost any basic mineral exceeds that gank limit..... I think it's fair to say there is an issue.
When a web alt is considered 'compulsory' to fly a Freighter, I think it's fair to say there is an issue.


Neither of those are fair.

Pricetag is not, nor will it ever be a balancing factor no matter how many carebears cry about losing blingships to people who actually play the game correctly. Yes, a small ship should be able to kill you if you don't play properly, that's what game balance is.

And secondly, a web alt plus a freighter totaling two people permits you to avoid a twenty man gang almost 100% of the time.

If anything, that's massively unbalanced in favor of the freighter.

This is a multiplayer game. One person should never be able to mitigate the actions of a dozen or more people just based on the price of his hull.

You are straight up asking for a situation already unbalanced in your favor to be further so. That will never happen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#68 - 2014-12-03 01:23:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I still wonder at times, when I see freighters go down, if I could get some friends in a tiny car and give everybody some handguns or a rifle and see if we can take out a container truck or tractor trailer in "one volley".

You'd think all that metal could mean something but then I am told a missile has something like a 40 kiloton yield - yet the freighter is freaking huge.


It's a Walmart truck, up against military grade weaponry.

So if you're asking whether it can survive cannonfire from multiple M1 tanks while sitting still, the answer is no.

Quote:

I think it'll go either way - either bumping will get a suspect flag or freighters become tankable.


They have access to about a third more max tank now than they did before the rebalance.


Quote:

So the bumpers won't listen - and guess what's going to happen eventually.


Yeah, screw them for actually playing their playstyle. They should just be content with it's theoretical existence, because if they actually play it they might get nerfed because the thumbless monkeys who fly freighters can't be asked to defend themselves properly.



Nobody's playstyle is safe. They are trying to save Eve.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#69 - 2014-12-03 01:25:21 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I still wonder at times, when I see freighters go down, if I could get some friends in a tiny car and give everybody some handguns or a rifle and see if we can take out a container truck or tractor trailer in "one volley".

Depending on the caliber of the firearm, certain small arms can disable the engine block of a semi with a single round, so...

I've spent quite a bit of time in freighters and jump freighters. My experience has always been that if you take adequate precautions, you'll be fine.
Evei Shard wrote:

They will gank anything.

Then it isn't really just about freighters either, is it?




I'm about to break into song here....

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#70 - 2014-12-03 01:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Nobody's playstyle is safe. They are trying to save Eve.




That's the best you have? That's your best retort?

Straight up.

Bumping is here to stay, barring a full rework of the game's physics engine. (which won't happen any time soon, if they could do that then they would have fixed POS mechanics by now)

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Those are my predictions on the matter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#71 - 2014-12-03 02:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Nobody's playstyle is safe. They are trying to save Eve.




That's the best you have? That's your best retort?

Straight up.

Bumping is here to stay, barring a full rework of the game's physics engine. (which won't happen any time soon, if they could do that then they would have fixed POS mechanics by now)

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Those are my predictions on the matter.




You strike me as a bit angry and I can tell by the way you word your posts that you have grown progressively worse in this thread. Your posts drip of judgments and generalizations that has me wondering by what power you can know what's going on in another players head when you see them on your overview. Is this a special overview setting?

I never lose the notion that what I spend on my subscription to Eve Online could feed a family somewhere in the world for a week or even a month. We're lucky we can sit here and argue pixels. When I drive my muscle car that all gee whiz rare and stuff I know full well that everywhere else in the world they'd pull the engine and use it to drive well pumps (and live).



What are you so angry about? This is a game. You should be happy to be the one playing a game and not wondering "what are space pixels? Can I eat them?"

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#72 - 2014-12-03 02:12:02 UTC
I had fairly extensive dental work done this afternoon, and my anesthetic wore off since then.

And it was military dentistry, no less.

I'm a bit cranky.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#73 - 2014-12-03 03:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
It's nice to see the moral crusaders come out and use this discussion as a clarion call for further nerfs to ganking, but that's not what this issue has to do with at all. The issue is that neutral bumping is a free tackle in situations where that tackle would normally have the cost of ship destruction by CONCORD, but doesn't.

I do a lot of wars. During some of them, I've used the bumping mechanic to keep Orcas, and even barges firmly rooted in their asteroid belts, unable to move while my combat ship is making the warp. Did I like being devious and getting those kills? Yeah, I did. But that's not a justification for keeping an imbalanced mechanic in the game. In my eyes, it's no different than remaking your corporation within two minutes when you receive a war declaration, even though it affects the players on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
suspect flag for bumping

Imagine what this will do to heavily-populated areas. Half of the people undocking at a hub are going to get suspect flags before their computers even load the environment. Also, people are going to play billiards with others, and give objectively-innocent people suspect flags that they don't deserve. As much as I'd like all of these free kills you're trying to gift me so generously, your idea is plain stupid, no offense.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bumping is here to stay, barring a full rework of the game's physics engine.

Don't need to rework anything. The physics formula that bumping relies on has multiple variables that can be adjusted for various effects. Mass, for example, is one of them. A low-slot module that increases mass would be a solution that both works and keeps the elements of player choice and risk/reward trade-off firmly in the hands of the players.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#74 - 2014-12-03 04:22:25 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Then it isn't really just about freighters either, is it?


Freighters are the easy target due to their slow align and other drawbacks (slot layout, etc.).

But if you look at CODE's kills, no, it's not just about ganking freighters.

That said, I have little "skin in this game" regarding the thread, as I rarely fly a freighter on my indy side. Just pointing out that cargo value has little to do with getting ganked specifically by CODE (best known for bumping).

Profit favors the prepared
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#75 - 2014-12-03 04:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


They are almost invincible when flown with the current reasonable tools at their disposal. My freighter alt has yet to lose her cargo despite often carrying 2bil or more in her hull.

They absolutely do not need any additional functionality in any way. They are supposed to have some chance to die, you realize.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
And how every time anyone calls for a buff you disagree with it's not needed because you can do 'X'

Freighters however most certainly do need additional fitting functionality.
All industrial ships do.
They need to not have their stats hard baked and instead be able to manipulate them via their fittings, and to have a sensible allowance in fittings to do so.

I am not calling for them to become ungankable, but when the 'gank' limit on a freighter is considered to be less than the value of the hull, and filling them with a hull full of almost any basic mineral exceeds that gank limit..... I think it's fair to say there is an issue.
When a web alt is considered 'compulsory' to fly a Freighter, I think it's fair to say there is an issue.

Exactly where the point should be for a Gank, I don't know, and I wouldn't complain if EHP stayed the same assuming a 'reasonable' fit. Note, Reasonable does not include officer fittings, High grade slaves or two OGB alts (One each side of the gate so you can't get ganked before the OGB has it's links running). Reasonable includes a T2 fit with some room for other fittings or implants to improve agility, warp speed, utility or cargo still. This would mean max cargo fits would reduce in EHP almost certainly, but a standard fit should remain the same, meaning max EHP brick fits would increase somewhat.

And the idea of a Smart Bombing freighter gang also appeals to me for LOL killmails where Freighters kill combat ships :)



Freighters aren't intended to carry ninety million units of Mexallon with a side serve of a thousand melted nanoribbons. (Although if anyone wants to do so, please do - my alliance could do with the donation)

They are intended to carry extremely bulky low value goods, like ninety million units of Tritanium, or eight fitted and rigged assault frigates.

If you want to carry medium density, medium value items (like Zydrine or packaged heavy assault cruisers), you should use other ships, like blockade runners or deep space transports, that are designed for moving those things. And if you want to haul ultra high value, ultra compact items, a brick tanked strategic cruiser with an ECM escort is one option, an overtanked XL ASB shield marauder with a Daredevil escort is another, and an interceptor or shuttle is another.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#76 - 2014-12-03 04:40:35 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
[quote=PotatoOverdose]
That said, I have little "skin in this game" regarding the thread, as I rarely fly a freighter on my indy side. Just pointing out that cargo value has little to do with getting ganked specifically by CODE (best known for bumping).




We prioritise high value or suspected high value targets. But, permit revenue is important to us too, and being able to link a killmail of an empty brick tanked freighter and its pilot's Slave pod assists in permit negotiations.

So if your empty freighter does get ganked by my comrades, it's nothing personal. It's business. We need both positive and negative examples of the value of our permit product, and we nominated you for the negative.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#77 - 2014-12-03 04:42:01 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


Freighters aren't intended to carry ninety million units of Mexallon with a side serve of a thousand melted nanoribbons. (Although if anyone wants to do so, please do - my alliance could do with the donation)

They are intended to carry extremely bulky low value goods, like ninety million units of Tritanium, or eight fitted and rigged assault frigates.

If you want to carry medium density, medium value items (like Zydrine or packaged heavy assault cruisers), you should use other ships, like blockade runners or deep space transports, that are designed for moving those things. And if you want to haul ultra high value, ultra compact items, a brick tanked strategic cruiser with an ECM escort is one option, an overtanked XL ASB shield marauder with a Daredevil escort is another, and an interceptor or shuttle is another.

You do of course realise that Mexallon is the third cheapest mineral......
Which contradicts your own argument because compared to the other minerals it's low value.
Of course Pyrite puts you over the 1 Billion gank mark people are talking about also.

When you have to go to literally the cheapest mineral in order to not be over the 1 billion gankable mark......
Dimitrios Bekas
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#78 - 2014-12-03 04:47:24 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
I sort off have my freighter collecting dust now. I know lame but not worth to get lost even now it gets ganked when it has no cargo.

So large stuff I let others haul - courier contract.
Medium stuff - tanked Orca (never afk).
Expensive stuff - cloaked blockade runner with every possible speed and agile mod, incl. implants I can cram into it/me.
Plex - just go to the station where I need them then and only then I redeem them.

I tried the web trick but I never got the hang of it.


you can activate a plex right outside of your "my assets" window...no need ever ever to fly to a station where it is located or to even haul Plex ever again in new eden
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2014-12-03 04:52:26 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
There is an interesting way to counter a bump once it happens.

An alt in a frigate a few hundred KM off grid. Manually adjust your frigate's position until your frigate is in line with the direction your freighter is being bumped. You should be able to warp to it.

Actually done that before, along with super ecm and neut scorp
Ended with combat probes and suicide blackbirds, and me scooting off with 700 mil in a looted can of tengu subsystems
Was a shame to, freighter pilot was really nice and wanted to live




I read that like 3 times and want to know more about that story. Shocked

Simple enough, freighter during burn Jita if I remember right, otherwise that was just them nuking that scorp finally.
Got caught being bumped, tried webbing didnt work, so scooted off grid
Freighter warped at 100 for bizarre reason ends up still on grid and gets bumped again
Gankball shows up, manage to neut and jam enough out that concord kills the ball leaving the freighter
Rustle up a couple of logi friends to save the guy, no one has hull reps so fate is sealed
Gank ball comes again, I look to whore, find myself confronted with 2 blackbirds and get jammed out
During this I manage to get freighter to drop cargo, apparently only does peicemeal and so I get a package of 700 mil into my scorp
Ends with the rest being lost to the wreck and into a gankers orca by the newb ship to corp hangar method
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#80 - 2014-12-03 05:02:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


Freighters aren't intended to carry ninety million units of Mexallon with a side serve of a thousand melted nanoribbons. (Although if anyone wants to do so, please do - my alliance could do with the donation)

They are intended to carry extremely bulky low value goods, like ninety million units of Tritanium, or eight fitted and rigged assault frigates.

If you want to carry medium density, medium value items (like Zydrine or packaged heavy assault cruisers), you should use other ships, like blockade runners or deep space transports, that are designed for moving those things. And if you want to haul ultra high value, ultra compact items, a brick tanked strategic cruiser with an ECM escort is one option, an overtanked XL ASB shield marauder with a Daredevil escort is another, and an interceptor or shuttle is another.

You do of course realise that Mexallon is the third cheapest mineral......
Which contradicts your own argument because compared to the other minerals it's low value.
Of course Pyrite puts you over the 1 Billion gank mark people are talking about also.

When you have to go to literally the cheapest mineral in order to not be over the 1 billion gankable mark......


I buy enough Mexallon to know its price, yes, I think I buy about a freighter load of it per month.

There is no reason you need to fill a freighter completely. That is a risk you should get other people to take for you.

Freighters should only be full when hauling really low value items, like Construction Blocks, some of the low value PI products, tech 1 assembled ships, tech 1 modules, or lower quality meta items.

Just because you own a freighter does not mean it is the right tool for the job. 95% of my hauling is done via the Contracting skill, 4.5% in combat vessels *noone* expects to be hauling, and only a tiny fraction in the few 'hauler' ships I can actually fly, mostly when my tech 2 production is held up because I ran out of a PI component or the tech 1 hull I'm turning into a tech 2 one.

If I'm moving Morphite or blueprints, it's *always* in a combat ship.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com